Simultaneous strikes

Kung Fu Wang

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It might be a jab and a front kick at the same time ...
It exists in the long fist system a lot. I have trained those moves all my life but have never be able to apply it in sparring. Either my kick can land on my opponent's body, but my fist is too far, or my fist can land on my opponent's body but my leg is not fully extended yet.

IMO, this kind of training is for body coordination, flexibility, and balance.

john_kick_punch.jpg
 

pdg

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I think two of the WTF BB forms have double moves. One has a "mountain block" where you make a pushing motion. The other is a double punch. One of the lower Palgwe's have a double punch from a back stance which I have never understood. I have a hard time picturing how to make much power with a double hand and foot strike. Possibly crossing right with left would make decent power. Maybe more as a distraction to set up your next move.

In addition to that, the Chang Hon patterns contain many double moves.

Various double punches, strikes, blocks and kicks - either to the same direction or to different directions.
 

JowGaWolf

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That looks similar to what we do, except in our kata we're not leaning our upper body into it. I would like to see this compared to a single punch in a video, if you could. And/or some examples of it being used effectively in sparring!
I only have an old video where you can't see it well. This is a screen shot of a video of a sparring session. I'm short of sparring partners so I'm not sure if I can get a recent video of me using it in sparring.

This was my opponents first time ever experiencing this punch. I'm the one in the black long pants. I have red gloves on and you can see that I have one glove under his guard and one slipping through the top. I threw this punch in a way that he wouldn't get hit but he would understand that he could have gotten hit, if I wanted to him him with it.
upload_2018-6-22_15-48-53.png



These pictures are out of order on purpose. We can call the top picture the Mid-Stage of the punch after the punch reached it's target. The picture below is when the punch was heading to it's target. The red glove that's in front of my face is my glove not his. I launched this attack when he had his guard down. Take note of the proximity of my foot. As you can see the distance is very close.
upload_2018-6-22_15-58-18.png


This is the last phase where I'm beginning my recovery. Normally with this punch, my hands would have already been back to guard position. But I keep them extended just to make a statement and to let him know that I had him. Had I really tried to make contact I would have easily busted his face. This punch is more like a crashing punch and not a snapping punch. Think of someone ramming a staff into the body vs jabbing(poking) a staff at the body.
upload_2018-6-22_16-8-9.png


We see this punch done in other martial arts systems and the one thing that they have in common is that this punch doesn't snap back like a jab, they just leave it out there like a pose. The reason why is because you ram this punch in. Even if they have a guard up, you ram your strike to its target. You can pick one hand to deliver the most power or you can deliver equal power. There's no solid rule. Sometimes the defender will over commit and leave an opening that shows very early during the strike, which gives you and opportunity to switch the hand that delivers the power, or even convert it into and upper cut.

In the video I do quite a bit of posing. He got the message because in the beginning of the video he starts talking trash, after the double punch he gets quiet and begins to focus more. Fast forward a few years, the same guy that I was sparring with used the same technique against a taller student and ended up hurting the student to the point where they had to pause sparring and switch people out. He didn't understand the force that the punch had back then. Now he's like me and is very reserved with the punch so not to hit his sparring partner in the face.
 

Flying Crane

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It exists in the long fist system a lot. I have trained those moves all my life but have never be able to apply it in sparring. Either my kick can land on my opponent's body, but my fist is too far, or my fist can land on my opponent's body but my leg is not fully extended yet.

IMO, this kind of training is for body coordination, flexibility, and balance.

john_kick_punch.jpg
For this kind of thing where one is low and the other is high, it can overload the body’s flinch response, as Jowga wolf mentioned.

When a strike comes at the groin, the natural response is to pull the hips back. When a shot comes at the face, the natural response is to pull the face back. You cannot do both simultaneously. This can override your automatic response and make you freeze for a moment. Then one or the other lands, probably the kick because the leg is longer, probably both will not land.

I agree with Tony though. A single strike probably has more solid body mechanics behind it and will likely be more effective. But the double strike can open the door.

After the double strike shown above, step down and forward with the right foot and drive a good solid right punch into him, with solid body mechanics.
 

JowGaWolf

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It exists in the long fist system a lot. I have trained those moves all my life but have never be able to apply it in sparring.
Recently discovered (like 2 days ago while training) that the application of this technique is not linear as we practice in the form. It works, but just not as it is practiced in the form. It also trains body coordination, flexibility, and balance, but the application is actually angular. It's also done at the end of a technique and not as technique that starts off the striking.
 
OP
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Recently discovered (like 2 days ago while training) that the application of this technique is not linear as we practice in the form. It works, but just not as it is practiced in the form. It also trains body coordination, flexibility, and balance, but the application is actually angular. It's also done at the end of a technique and not as technique that starts off the striking.

Can you expand on this a little bit? How are you defining "linear" and "angular" in this context, and how is it the end of the technique instead of the start?
 
OP
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Boxing the ears is legit

True, but that's a little bit of a different case, as the two hands work together in that case. If you box one ear, the head bounces the other way and the percussive effect on the eardrum is lessened (at least, I believe that's what would happen). Boxing both ears together keeps the head from bouncing away from either hand.

That's different than say punching to the nose with one hand and the solar plexus with another hand; or from punching to the head and kicking to the ground simultaneously.
 

JowGaWolf

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Can you expand on this a little bit? How are you defining "linear" and "angular" in this context, and how is it the end of the technique instead of the start?
When I teach linear and angular concepts, you have to think of it as relation to your opponent. A linear attack is one where you move forward to attack your opponent. Think of a line drawn on the ground from you and your opponent, where both of you are facing each other. A linear attack is one that occurs on this line. An angular attack occurs off the line. Certain techniques will only make sense and work if you look at it from the perspective of an angled attack.

The picture below shows linear concept on the left and angular concept on the right. The kick that Kung Fu Wang is talking about is always practiced in forms from a linear perspective and because of this we always think of it as a kick to the groin. Then when we try to pull it off in sparring, it becomes really difficult to do. The reason why is because in practice we use the linear perspective. In real world application we use the angular perspective. (Keep in mind this is only for the kick and simultaneous punch and strike.

upload_2018-6-22_17-58-17.png



Here the reality of fighting, people rarely stay on that center line. The second reality is that martial arts forms and katas are full of techniques. Some of the techniques are actual fighting combos, some are single strikes, some are combinations that work better at the beginning for a combination attack, and others work better at the end of your combination attack. Some are appear to be simultaneous attack that cause your opponent's mind to "Glitch" and that gives you more than enough time to land the strike successfully. There's just tons of things that you have to dig deep down in order to understand, it will take time and a lot of thinking, but eventually things will make sense. But back to the kick and punch.

If I look at the kick and punch from a linear perspective then my kick will be longer than my punch. Looking at the picture above, if the brown head guy kicks and punches the blue guy then his kick will be longer than his punch. However, this is not the case with the angular perspective. If the brown head guy punches with his left arm (arm closest to blue's arm) then his arm will be able to reach blues face at the same time that the kick reaches the body.

To understand techniques at the beginning and ending of combinations, you'll have to understand the effect that your technique has on a person. The rule is simple.
If it's too difficult to use the technique at the beginning of an attack then it means that it probably comes in the middle or the end of a technique. Tai chi has a good technique that can be used to palm strike and kick at the same time.

I've been hit with this one a few times from a classmate that I used to train with. I got hit in the face and kicked in the leg at the same time and my brain didn't know which part of my body to register pain first. The best way to put it is that you get punched in your face, but your leg feels the pain. It's a weird feeling. In application the kick isn't this high and it flies under the field of vision. So your brain registers the hand visually and doesn't understand nor see that the kick is coming in. So you feel the impact of the face strike but you get kicked where you were totally defenseless. I don't practice this at all, I just know it works because I got nailed with it a couple of times.
5.JPG
 

Kung Fu Wang

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the simultaneous strike
The double punches can be considered as "separate hands" that you separate your opponent's arms away from his head.

I'll call this double punches as "Chinese zombie's arms" strategy. It has great value if you want to wrap your opponent's punching arms and establish a clinch.

Chinese_zombie.jpg
 

JowGaWolf

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That's how the long fist combos were designed. The pattern that you have mentioned may repeat 1 time, 2 times, or even 3 times.

Great video. If you notice a jab initially comes first before the simultaneous punch kick technique. In my discover and in the form it's the same way. In every, form that I know where this kick exists there is always a technique before it. It's always .. "Do something first then the (punch+kick)" and not "just do the (punch+kick) first then something else.
 

JowGaWolf

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By adding a hand pulling, the short distance knee kick and face punch can work well.

wc_3.jpg
Jow Ga has a similar technique in the form and it's always linear. It's never off center. But in application the only concept that makes sense is to be off center and attack from an angle. The technique will always fail from a linear application concept. Most people don't fight using the techniques in their form. Most of the time it's just theory without experimentation through sparring.
 

Martial D

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True, but that's a little bit of a different case, as the two hands work together in that case. If you box one ear, the head bounces the other way and the percussive effect on the eardrum is lessened (at least, I believe that's what would happen). Boxing both ears together keeps the head from bouncing away from either hand.

That's different than say punching to the nose with one hand and the solar plexus with another hand; or from punching to the head and kicking to the ground simultaneously.

True, but they are simultaneous strikes that are effective.
 

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I've seen in both kata and in kung fu movies the simultaneous strike or simultaneous combination. It might be a jab and a front kick at the same time, or two punches at the same time. Not a 1-2 combination, but both strikes impact the target at the same moment.

Is there a practical purpose for these moves, other than that they look cool in a form or they look good on film?

Simultaneous strikes have limited practicality for you can't generate a lot of power with them and they leave you exposed. However, there are some situations where they could be useful. If you are grabbed by the lapels from a front facing opponent simultaneous strikes to the ears or forearms wouldn't be a horrible idea. You must break the grab before you can throw punches with any significant power. Granted I'm not expecting either techniques to break the grab, but it's more of a "softening" technique to then utilize another technique(lock, throw, etc) afterwards.
 

JowGaWolf

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Simultaneous strikes have limited practicality for you can't generate a lot of power with them and they leave you exposed.
While I don't agree with you.
Spock does
 

Danny T

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What is a crashing entry?
Think clinching, 50/50 position, double under or over hooks, Double leg takedown

Why are they used for creating space?
Because one may want or need to create distance or space...maybe in order to knee or kick. One maybe defending the above clinch (bear hug). Or some other reason.

(I'm not trying to be annoyingly picky, I just want to fully understand).
It's all good. When studying forms and possible applications one should look at multiple ranges. With weapons, empty hand, long range, close range, standing, kneeing and others. Is the opponent in front, to the side, or even at your back. Can it be a throw, a takedown, or something else.
 

JowGaWolf

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It's all good. When studying forms and possible applications one should look at multiple ranges. With weapons, empty hand, long range, close range, standing, kneeing and others. Is the opponent in front, to the side, or even at your back. Can it be a throw, a takedown, or something else.
I agree 100% with this.
 

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