Shooting stance

Discussion in 'General Weapons Discussion' started by Runs With Fire, May 3, 2019.

  1. Runs With Fire

    Runs With Fire Black Belt

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    I'm getting more and more into firearms training. I use the same stance as when fighting, because it's stil a fight. Isosceles, I think. Just a basic lead foot half a step up from a neutral stance. I reach that stance, generally by stepping back a half step with my non lead foot, while drawing or presenting if already drawn. Both hands on my pistol, both arms equal and nearly completely extended. Even pressure from both hands.

    PROS. it's easy to walk,run, side step, take an angle, advance, retreat and have a good base I'f it goes hand to hand.

    CONS. apparently, it's considered an unnatural responseive position to an aggressive threat? And apparently, alot of law enforcement and trainers aren't on board with it because "you'll just end up shoulders and feet squared to a violent unexpected threat and then you will be out of your training element".

    The Neutral stance.
    Feet placed shoulder length apart, pointed forward and shoulders squared with your body. All squared with your target. I have some people telling me I have to to the "Neutral" shooting stance because it's "just a natural response". I said "try managing recoil that way with a real pistol". They try and manage recoil by lwaning forward into the pistol, squatting a bit, and sticking their butt out to keep balance. I think it's stupid. Wat do you think?
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    What's "natural" (they mean something you'll respond to by habit, rather than thought) is changed by training. My "natural" response is closer to a traditional hanmi. When I shoot, I use what I'd call an open j-hanmi, with my weight shifted forward (leaning slightly forward to the lead leg) to counter recoil. It's not a normal stance for most folks, but decades of training make that j-hanmi an automatic response for me, and a bit of firearms work made the forward lean automatic, too.
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    By the way, as I understand it, most LE training is also trying to keep the front of the ballistic vest toward a threat, rather than the exposed side. If you're not wearing a vest, an angle is a better idea.
     
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  4. Rat

    Rat Brown Belt

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    I think i have done weaver. As in straight to the side with weaver. (not tactical)

    Is there a stance where you are at a 45 degree angle? So its kind of like weaver but the front of your plate (if present) is actually facing the threat somewhat.

    edit: apparently the CAR system is based on the neutral stance most police officers would stand in when doing traffic stops etc. Or something like that.
     
  5. wab25

    wab25 Brown Belt

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  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I have no idea if there's a formal name for the stance. It's the natural result of the combination of my training in Aikido and my firearms experience.

    Looking at Shooting Illustrated's descriptions, Chapman's pretty close, except the strong arm is bent like Weaver. And to add to it, my right hand is dominant, but my left eye is dominant, so I am bladed more than normal, to get the sights lined up with the left eye.
     
  7. wab25

    wab25 Brown Belt

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    Are you shooting right handed, but lining up to aim with your left eye?
     
  8. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    All the Academies and Agencies I know teach a version of isosceles


    I shoot handgun, rifle, and shotgun from neutral isoceles and dont have any trouble with recoil.

    Slight lean forward, slight bend in knees, and shoulders kinda up and forward with down looking barrel. This position reduces muzzle rise and naturally brings the gun back on target after recoil. It also allows you to grouch walk without a lot of muzzle movement.

    IMO, Isoceles work best moving forward and back while groucho walking and is the better stance in open gound. Also, when cutting the pie.

    CAR is good while walking laterally and in confined spaces.
     
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  9. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    I remember watching a youtube interview about Jack weaver and if I remember correctly he was saying that what we know today is more an exaggerated version of what he really did. I don't really see a difference in the posted link between the weaver and chapman.
     
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  10. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    That's the easiest solution for a cross-dominant shooter with a pistol. It's natural, and it happens automatically if you don't force something else, like turning the head to line up the sights. The only time you have a major problem is if you're using a really sideways/angled stance where you just may not be able to reach all the way across the body...

    Most LE shooting today starts from an isosceles stance modification. There are several reasons, like it keeps the body armor lined up with a potential threat, and it reflects what we're seeing actually happen under pressure. It's also easier to teach people to start moving and shooting that way. Personally, I use a modified version because I was originally taught the modified Weaver, and I just can't undo all of the early training. My lead foot is about even with the toes of the back foot...

    Oh... and I shoot shotgun and rifle lefty... though I can shoot either right handed, but have to really turn my head to line up my left eye.
     
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  11. Runs With Fire

    Runs With Fire Black Belt

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    that's one thing I found out from military guys.
     
  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes.
     
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I wish I'd learned to shoot long guns lefty. I never spent enough time on them, so I end up closing an eye to sight.
     
  14. Buka

    Buka MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That's okay, though, we're all one eye dominant over the other anyway.

    I've been shooting so long I don't remember half the stuff we do or used to do. I can't even remember what stance I use now, they're all the same to me. But qualifications are this month so I'll see what stance I have.
     
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  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I only remember because I had to pay attention to it when I had a 1911 officer's model for a while. It was compensated, and shoved back pretty hard. I had to figure out how to adjust to that shove, which was a big change from the 9mm flip I was used to (and had built my habits around).
     
  16. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    I am EXTREMELY left eye dominant, though I'm right handed. (Like off the testing chart when they test it...) Shooting a long gun lefty just makes more sense...
     
  17. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Stance is modified Weaver. Feet are in zenkutsu dachi, sometimes kokutsu dachi. Right handed, right eye dominant.
     
  18. Rat

    Rat Brown Belt

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    See from what i have seen of CAR they aim using both eyes. at least for some positions. Dont ask me how you do that, i dont know.
     
  19. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    It's for close quarter battles. You are point shooting just using your front sigt.
     
  20. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Neutral stance, unless circumstances for something else. Recoil is no problem. And yes, I shoot real pistols.
    Neutral stance makes it far easier to track a target moving across. It's the easiest to move.
     

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