Shawn Obasi & Emin Boztepe friendly Chi-sau

[blindsage]

I learned the hard way very early on , never to fall for the "Let's just do some light rolling" line.
The first time someone almost broke my nose with an elbow strike , the second time someone tried to trap me and hit me in the throat.

When doing chi sau with unknown people always be "switched on".
Always be ready to go up a gear from "light rolling" into chi sau sparring and even to real fighting if need be.

I understand what your saying, but not everyone thinks that way. I don't feel the need to knock the crap out of every fool that comes along and doesn't know what "friendly" means. My ego isn't that fragile. I've met a number of very skilled people that feel the same way.

 

[blindsage]

Emin vs. Sifu Kwok, Emin would destroy him. He is just that damn good. And truth be told, if Sifu Kwok was that good you wouldn't see obasi being so pushy. But this is only my opinion. From my experience, you don't turn it "on" or "off", it is there or its not. And from what I see, its not.All the best,Jeff

Maybe Emin is better than Kwok. That doesn't change the fact that these are two different videos. One is a demo, the other is blind folded chi sau where Obasi disconnects multiple times because he can't get the advantage any other way. Emin ends every interaction immediately to show what can be done. The other videos are rolling, different animals. And from my experience, it's not about "on" or "off" its about how far you want to go. Again, there are plenty of high quality instructors out there that don't feel the need to crack heads in public to "prove" something. There are also plenty that do. One doesn't prove a higher skill level than another.

 

[Nabakatsu]

I know for a fact that Obasi wouldn't dare pull that crap on Emin, maybe it's because he's been hit enough times, maybe it's because he's clearly not as physically fit.. who knows.. but even if Emin was blindfolded, he wouldn't play nice, if Obasi disconnected.. he would RUSH IN and make him pay.
Maybe the others were just too lighthearted, either way.. It would have been worse for Obasi if he attempted to rough up Emin than what had happened.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

I suppose most of ya'll aren't smelling what im stepping in.

Let me break it down so ya'll can understand.

You can say all you want about kwok and williams being "nicer", but that just means they got pushed around. Emin didn't. Why? Becuase he controlled the situation. I was trying to point something out; You need to control the engagement. Emin did; the other two didn't. That is all im saying.

FFS

 

[Xue Sheng]

Of course it had nothing to do with the possibility that Obasi was a bit more intimidated my Emin based on reputation, size, and lack of a blind fold

 

[Tames D]

My problem with Emin... He looks great in seminars. He is commanding in videos. He talks a good game. But, I still can't get out of my mind the video of him and William Cheung wrestling. What a joke that two Wing Chun Masters could not execute basic Wing Chun principles in a REAL fight that Emin provoked. Very laughable. It's hard to take Emin seriously based on that. After all, fighting is what it's all about, not seminars and produced videos. I have seen no evidence that Emin can take care of himself in a real fight.

 

[wtxs]

I wasn't commenting on skill level. I've only ever heard great things about Emin's skill, but at no point is Obasi even attempting the pressure he puts on Williams or even Kwok. The Emin video is not the same kind of video as the other two. It is not an exchange of chi sau, it is a demo for Emin.

You are 100% in pointing out the differences of what each one of the videos represent.

Now can we please move on with some thing more constructive?

 

[blindsage]

I suppose most of ya'll aren't smelling what im stepping in.

Let me break it down so ya'll can understand.

You can say all you want about kwok and williams being "nicer", but that just means they got pushed around. Emin didn't. Why? Becuase he controlled the situation. I was trying to point something out; You need to control the engagement. Emin did; the other two didn't. That is all im saying.

FFS

I know of two extremely high level kung fu instructors that passed away in the last couple of years, both highly respected. One, when presented with somebody who would want to play "gotcha" to try and prove something, would just cut straight through the person's offense/defense and drop them to teach them a lesson. The other hated hurting people and would "play" friendly, even with somebody out to prove something and play "gotcha". One had a reputation as a bad ***, the other had a reputation for extremely high skill, but a lot of doubters. Regardless they both had the highest regard for eachother's skill.

 

[mook jong man]

I understand what your saying, but not everyone thinks that way. I don't feel the need to knock the crap out of every fool that comes along and doesn't know what "friendly" means. My ego isn't that fragile. I've met a number of very skilled people that feel the same way.

I'm not talking about punching the **** out of them.
I am just saying that you have to be ready for anything , even if they say they just want to do "light rolling".
For the record I did not hurt the two individuals that hit me with cheap shots , the first one ran out the door while my class mates held me back because they knew I would destroy him.
The second one a few years later that attempted to Fak Sau me in the throat for real had his young son with him , and due to his crappy stance and poor chi sau I was able to bulldoze him out the door and told him to hit the road.

 

[mook jong man]

My problem with Emin... He looks great in seminars. He is commanding in videos. He talks a good game. But, I still can't get out of my mind the video of him and William Cheung wrestling. What a joke that two Wing Chun Masters could not execute basic Wing Chun principles in a REAL fight that Emin provoked. Very laughable. It's hard to take Emin seriously based on that. After all, fighting is what it's all about, not seminars and produced videos. I have seen no evidence that Emin can take care of himself in a real fight.

Be that as it may with the wrestling episode , which was many years ago.
Anybody that has done Wing Chun for quite a while , can just tell by the way the man moves and his degree of hand speed that the man can fight.

He is not from my lineage and I'm not really a fan , we favour a more internal method.
But credit must be given where credit is due.

 

[Tames D]

Be that as it may with the wrestling episode , which was many years ago.
Anybody that has done Wing Chun for quite a while , can just tell by the way the man moves and his degree of hand speed that the man can fight.

He is not from my lineage and I'm not really a fan , we favour a more internal method.
But credit must be given where credit is due.

Credit for what? Good video production? Good movement? Good hand speed? From what I saw in the video, the man can't fight in a street fight.

 

[mook jong man]

Credit for what? Good video production? Good movement? Good hand speed? From what I saw in the video, the man can't fight in a street fight.

I've seen other clips of him doing chi sau and various other things over the years that other people on here have put up , and I recognise skill in Wing Chun when I see it.
That man would definitely have no problem in a street fight.

 

[Tames D]

I've seen other clips of him doing chi sau and various other things over the years that other people on here have put up , and I recognise skill in Wing Chun when I see it.
That man would definitely have no problem in a street fight.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but the video on record of him vs Cheung suggests otherwise.

 

[K-man]

Once again I stress my ignorance of WC, but I have spent a little time looking at video of Emin and pulled up the fight with William Cheung. How anyone could think that Emin wouldn't do well in a street fight astounds me. I'm with Mook on this one. Emin is one cool dude, IMHO. If he put on a seminar here I would be there like a shot and I have never studied WC. From a martial art pov, his footwork is fantastic, his hands are fast and he blends well with his opponent's attack to redirect and enter. Every martial art student would learn heaps just by watching him, regardless of style.

Then I went back and looked at the three OP videos again. I come up with the same conclusion. The first one demonstrated to me that Emin is light years ahead of Obesi and they were both 'playing fair'. The second video, to me, was demonstrating the skill of Sifu Kwok to defend while blindfolded. Having practised that way a lot myself, I thought it was a good demonstration of skill, but in reality, Obesi could have taken advantage of the situation if he wanted to do the 'wrong thing'.

The final video is interesting from the perspective of venue. It looks like it is at some sort of expo. It looks like an impromptu sparring session with Obesi 'testing' Sifu Williams. His defence collapses. It is certainly not a good example of Chi Sau, again IMHO, but it is interesting to watch. :asian:

 

[Tames D]

Once again I stress my ignorance of WC, but I have spent a little time looking at video of Emin and pulled up the fight with William Cheung. How anyone could think that Emin wouldn't do well in a street fight astounds me. I'm with Mook on this one. Emin is one cool dude, IMHO. If he put on a seminar here I would be there like a shot and I have never studied WC. From a martial art pov, his footwork is fantastic, his hands are fast and he blends well with his opponent's attack to redirect and enter. Every martial art student would learn heaps just by watching him, regardless of style.

Then I went back and looked at the three OP videos again. I come up with the same conclusion. The first one demonstrated to me that Emin is light years ahead of Obesi and they were both 'playing fair'. The second video, to me, was demonstrating the skill of Sifu Kwok to defend while blindfolded. Having practised that way a lot myself, I thought it was a good demonstration of skill, but in reality, Obesi could have taken advantage of the situation if he wanted to do the 'wrong thing'.

The final video is interesting from the perspective of venue. It looks like it is at some sort of expo. It looks like an impromptu sparring session with Obesi 'testing' Sifu Williams. His defence collapses. It is certainly not a good example of Chi Sau, again IMHO, but it is interesting to watch. :asian:

I agree with your post 100%. I'm not suggesting that Emin has no skills. He's highly skilled. I'm just not impressed with his performance in a real fight. I thought it looked sloppy and I saw no Wing Chun. A far cry from his videos. To me the bottom line is the actual fighting.

 

[K-man]

I've seen other clips of him doing chi sau and various other things over the years that other people on here have put up , and I recognise skill in Wing Chun when I see it.
That man would definitely have no problem in a street fight.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but the video on record of him vs Cheung suggests otherwise.

Unless you have better video than the one I watched I doubt that's the case. As I read elsewhere, Cheung was a lot older and Emin, a young conditioned fighter. It was also a long while ago. The fact that it went to the ground just demonstrates that s#1t happens and it doesn't demonstrate much more than that. A good martial artist of any style should be able to work on the ground and the fact that Emin seems to have done more there actually backs Mook's observation. That incident happened in 1986, 27 years ago. William Cheung was 46, Emin was 24. I have a vague suspicion that in the intervening time, Emin may have even improved a little!

As for street fights ..

Boztepe was born in Eskişehir, Turkey, the second of six children. At the age of four, his family, originally from Bağlıca village of Emirdağ, moved to Germany According to Boztepe, his early days in Germany were difficult due to his Turkish heritage—he was a constant target for racial insults and, more often than not, verbal abuse would escalate into physical abuse. Martial arts became something of a necessity and his father urged him to begin training. Boztepe recalled, "Germany was not the healthiest place for a young Turk in those days of growing racism and neo-Nazi movements." He claimed to have been in over 300 street fights, many of them a result of this period, though he also claimed to have not started any of these fights.


In 1976, at the age of 14, Boztepe began studying martial arts, including judo, Shotokan karate, wrestling, Muay Thai, and traditional boxing. During this period, he also fought as an amateur boxer in 16 matches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emin_Boztepe

... I'll give him the benefit of the doubt! :asian:

 

[geezer]

Unless you have better video than the one I watched I doubt that's the case. As I read elsewhere, Cheung was a lot older and Emin, a young conditioned fighter. It was also a long while ago. The fact that it went to the ground just demonstrates that s#1t happens and it doesn't demonstrate much more than that. A good martial artist of any style should be able to work on the ground and the fact that Emin seems to have done more there actually backs Mook's observation. That incident happened in 1986, 27 years ago. William Cheung was 46, Emin was 24. I have a vague suspicion that in the intervening time, Emin may have even improved a little!

As for street fights ... I'll give him the benefit of the doubt! :asian:

Well said, K-man. I met Emin when he first visited the US about a year or so after that infamous challenge, and I saw an original, and apparently unedited version of the video. I can definitely say un-edited, or at least less-edited because it was longer than the versions put up on youtube. As to who won that bout, there was no question. As to who provoked it, there there are two sides to that. It was a long time ago and frankly, I don't care.

What is certain, is that even way back then as a junior ranked EWTO instructor, Emin was a serious scrapper. His stand-up game was fierce, whether he used WT, or a mix of the other fighting and brawling skills he'd picked up. But like a lot of other stand up fighters at that time, his ground game was under-developed. That comes out in the video. And, at the time I met him he was already working very hard to build stronger grappling skills and working privately with some world class wrestlers. BJJ was just beginning to get attention, and Emin was already adapting to the new reality. I know this for a fact because a good friend and kung fu brother of mine was briefly a room-mate of Emin's in the early 90's. In the decades since, it's obvious that Emin has become far more knowledgeable both in WT/WC and grappling.

Now, I'm not a student of Emin's, and I personally know a lot of people that flat out don't like him or trust him. Whatever. And, of course, like any commercial instructor, his videos are highly produced promotions, and not exactly an accurate representation of how things can go down in a real fight. A real fight, --check all the security camera clips on youtube-- looks more like that old video of Emin an William Cheung. So anyway, I have to give credit where credit is due. Emin's skill, athleticism, and competitive spirit are extraordinary. ...And obvious. So when Tames dismisses him out of hand, he just sounds uninformed.

 

[mook jong man]

Unless you have better video than the one I watched I doubt that's the case. As I read elsewhere, Cheung was a lot older and Emin, a young conditioned fighter. It was also a long while ago. The fact that it went to the ground just demonstrates that s#1t happens and it doesn't demonstrate much more than that. A good martial artist of any style should be able to work on the ground and the fact that Emin seems to have done more there actually backs Mook's observation. That incident happened in 1986, 27 years ago. William Cheung was 46, Emin was 24. I have a vague suspicion that in the intervening time, Emin may have even improved a little!

As for street fights ..



... I'll give him the benefit of the doubt! :asian:

Yeah , it was bloody years and years ago.
Because I remember seeing the footage when I hadn't even been training that long.
One of the instructors played us the video tape of it and said words to the effect that this is why you shouldn't say that your the best.
Which is apparently what William Cheung must have claimed.

 

[mook jong man]

Besides , he was 24.
I'm sure we all fight better or maybe more smarter now than when we were 24.
At 45 my gut is a lot bigger than it was then and I've got less hair , but I'm still a better fighter now than I was then.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Of course it had nothing to do with the possibility that Obasi was a bit more intimidated my Emin based on reputation, size, and lack of a blind fold

No, its because emin put him in his place.