Shawn Obasi & Emin Boztepe friendly Chi-sau

[geezer]

Jeff I know exactly where you are coming from, but please go over to those other forums when you feel the totally understandable need to "trash talk". The really cool thing about this place is that we disagree respectfully. It makes it a much cooler place to hang out.

As far as the politics goes, I've had similar experiences. When I first left WT, I just drifted away, attending to the demands of career and family. I never publicly aired my disappointment with the politics and business dealings of the organization so I wasn't "shunned" or anything like that. When I ran into my old dai-hing (kung fu brothers) we had pleasant exchanges. But many years later, when I joined the independent NVTO, stuff hit the fan. Now my oldest WT kung-fu brother (who I've known and trained with since 1979) won't even speak to me or answer a friendly email. Total excommunication. I guess I'm lucky I got out of that cult!

Honestly, I never fit in that well anyway. I was one of the guys who always asked "annoying questions". Now the shoe is on the other foot. Last night a student asked me an "annoying question" about a particular low level self defense technique against a headlock and takedown. He didn't think it would work reliably against a much larger, stronger opponent who had a grappling background. So I demonstrated it against the biggest guy in the class. He's 20 years younger that me, 80 pounds heavier, strong as an ox, and has a grappling background. Also, he's stubborn. That is to say a nice, respectful guy, but never "compliant".

So we did the technique and he grabbed me like he was going to rip my head off. Guess what? The defense didn't work! Especially when I let him get it on me really good. See, that's what I mean by an "annoying question" ...proving that something in the curriculum is ...a bit questionable at best. Problem is, I must be a crappy teacher ...because I love questions like that! So the big guy and I, along with another big guy who also grapples and has a Primary-Level rank will be getting together this weekend to improve our way of dealing with this attack.

See, that's what's wrong with me. I'd rather test my stuff and risk looking imperfect ...even in front of students, than teach them orthodox "crap". Also, makes training a lot more interesting.

 

[mook jong man]

Jeff I know exactly where you are coming from, but please go over to those other forums when you feel the totally understandable need to "trash talk". The really cool thing about this place is that we disagree respectfully. It makes it a much cooler place to hang out.

As far as the politics goes, I've had similar experiences. When I first left WT, I just drifted away, attending to the demands of career and family. I never publicly aired my disappointment with the politics and business dealings of the organization so I wasn't "shunned" or anything like that. When I ran into my old dai-hing (kung fu brothers) we had pleasant exchanges. But many years later, when I joined the independent NVTO, stuff hit the fan. Now my oldest WT kung-fu brother (who I've known and trained with since 1979) won't even speak to me or answer a friendly email. Total excommunication. I guess I'm lucky I got out of that cult!

Honestly, I never fit in that well anyway. I was one of the guys who always asked "annoying questions". Now the shoe is on the other foot. Last night a student asked me an "annoying question" about a particular low level self defense technique against a headlock and takedown. He didn't think it would work reliably against a much larger, stronger opponent who had a grappling background. So I demonstrated it against the biggest guy in the class. He's 20 years younger that me, 80 pounds heavier, strong as an ox, and has a grappling background. Also, he's stubborn. That is to say a nice, respectful guy, but never "compliant".

So we did the technique and he grabbed me like he was going to rip my head off. Guess what? The defense didn't work! Especially when I let him get it on me really good. See, that's what I mean by an "annoying question" ...proving that something in the curriculum is ...a bit questionable at best. Problem is, I must be a crappy teacher ...because I love questions like that! So the big guy and I, along with another big guy who also grapples and has a Primary-Level rank will be getting together this weekend to improve our way of dealing with this attack.

See, that's what's wrong with me. I'd rather test my stuff and risk looking imperfect ...even in front of students, than teach them orthodox "crap". Also, makes training a lot more interesting.

I'm visualising an attempted headlock from the side is that what your talking about Geezer ?
We were taught to do this one , as you get pulled down by the neck go with the force and hook punch him in the groin.

Like anything involving grabs or holds I reckon it's best if you can react before they can consolidate their grip.
The problem is they can hit you so hard with their forearm around the back of your neck that you can almost be knocked out before you realise whats happening.

What was the counter you were trying to do Geezer , just out of interest?

 

[geezer]

I'm visualising an attempted headlock from the side is that what your talking about Geezer ?
We were taught to do this one , as you get pulled down by the neck go with the force and hook punch him in the groin.

Like anything involving grabs or holds I reckon it's best if you can react before they can consolidate their grip.
The problem is they can hit you so hard with their forearm around the back of your neck that you can almost be knocked out before you realise whats happening.

What was the counter you were trying to do Geezer , just out of interest?

Mook, I used to think you were smart. Now I'm guessing that you are psychic. Yes, the attacker enters from the outside and headlocks you from the side, bending you over forwards and then punches your face. See the rather flowery and compliant version below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9x3ACeG1gY&list=PL5A8D582A7B79EBDB&index=4

Except, at my urging, my opponent cranked the headlock really tight, and from his own experience turned his hips sideways to cover his groin. Then he took me straight down to the floor. We don't have any mats yet. So I went with it pressing his face back and attempted to break free by hooking his head with my leg. Check out the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys5uDTMEjdY&list=PL5A8D582A7B79EBDB&index=5

Usually this works for me, but this time my partner ducked the leg hook used his strength and weight (240lbs.) to cinch up the headlockv very tight and really crush me with his body ...and he was still holding back some. I did have access to his eyes and throat, but he's a tough old boy and wouldn't yield short of me doing some real damage. And even if I had forced him to release, it's irrelevant. By that point, the intended techniques had failed.

 

[K-man]

I was one of the guys who always asked "annoying questions". Now the shoe is on the other foot. Last night a student asked me an "annoying question" about a particular low level self defense technique against a headlock and takedown. He didn't think it would work reliably against a much larger, stronger opponent who had a grappling background. So I demonstrated it against the biggest guy in the class. He's 20 years younger that me, 80 pounds heavier, strong as an ox, and has a grappling background. Also, he's stubborn. That is to say a nice, respectful guy, but never "compliant".

So we did the technique and he grabbed me like he was going to rip my head off. Guess what? The defense didn't work! Especially when I let him get it on me really good. See, that's what I mean by an "annoying question" ...proving that something in the curriculum is ...a bit questionable at best. Problem is, I must be a crappy teacher ...because I love questions like that! So the big guy and I, along with another big guy who also grapples and has a Primary-Level rank will be getting together this weekend to improve our way of dealing with this attack.

See, that's what's wrong with me. I'd rather test my stuff and risk looking imperfect ...even in front of students, than teach them orthodox "crap". Also, makes training a lot more interesting.

I encourage my guys to question. We test everything, especially when guys are providing their own explanations for kata. But if you really want to have some fun, get hold of a few self defence books from the library (most are not worth buying) and see if those techniques work. Even better look at the self defence for women books. They are full of 'magical' techniques that haven't a hope of working. Better to find out in the dojo than on the street.
:asian:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Mook, I used to think you were smart. Now I'm guessing that you are psychic. Yes, the attacker enters from the outside and headlocks you from the side, bending you over forwards and then punches your face. See the rather flowery and compliant version below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9x3ACeG1gY&list=PL5A8D582A7B79EBDB&index=4

Except, at my urging, my opponent cranked the headlock really tight, and from his own experience turned his hips sideways to cover his groin. Then he took me straight down to the floor. We don't have any mats yet. So I went with it pressing his face back and attempted to break free by hooking his head with my leg. Check out the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys5uDTMEjdY&list=PL5A8D582A7B79EBDB&index=5

Usually this works for me, but this time my partner ducked the leg hook used his strength and weight (240lbs.) to cinch up the headlockv very tight and really crush me with his body ...and he was still holding back some. I did have access to his eyes and throat, but he's a tough old boy and wouldn't yield short of me doing some real damage. And even if I had forced him to release, it's irrelevant. By that point, the intended techniques had failed.

Geezer - that second escape is a totally valid one, although the demonstration video was technically sloppy and missing some details (from my BJJ perspective). However it does depend on you being able to insert a frame to hold the attacker's head back for the leg hook. If he keeps his head tight and low, then you have to transition to a different technique. Which one depends on how he has his body and legs positioned. I wouldn't advocate escapes that depend on attacking the eyes and throat because the guy on top has even better access to attacking your eyes and it's probably best not to give him ideas.

 

[yak sao]

The guy in the first video id doing the technique a bit different than the way I was taught. I was taught to turn my centerline toward the opponent and as he pulled me in to the headlock, our entire body wedges in, uprooting him with our forward leg as our arm wedges his head back. The guy on the video is using more arm strength it looks like to me instead of his whole body.
Also, If the opponent gets the jump on us, and is able to pull us down (bending us at the waist) we were taught to get our legs back up under us by squatting down. then we are able to turn our center toward the opponent and wedge him again with our whole body as we stand back up.

 

[geezer]

The guy in the first video id doing the technique a bit different than the way I was taught. I was taught to turn my centerline toward the opponent and as he pulled me in to the headlock, our entire body wedges in, uprooting him with our forward leg as our arm wedges his head back. The guy on the video is using more arm strength it looks like to me instead of his whole body.
Also, If the opponent gets the jump on us, and is able to pull us down (bending us at the waist) we were taught to get our legs back up under us by squatting down. then we are able to turn our center toward the opponent and wedge him again with our whole body as we stand back up.

Sounds worth exploring. In my case the "attacker" entered off a V-step to the side with an an arm drag, which puts him at your side and sets him up to do the headlock and throw in one strong rotating movement, and also makes it harder for the WC defender to get back facing the attacker's center. I guess I have myself to blame since I outlined the attack. Apparently I'm better at engineering my own defeat than in effectively countering. LOL

Regardless, in discussing this scenario, all parties agreed that the best counter is, of course, the quickest and most direct, which stops the technique before it is locked-in --i.e. punching him right in the face (or throat) as he tries to throw his arm around your neck. If he does get his arm behind your head, then you can bring your same side arm up behind his arm (similar to the first video) but at the same time palm-striking him in the back of the head just below the base of the skull as you continue through to grab his face and drive his head back, again before he has you cinched-up tight. Then forget the fancy finish, just chain punch him down.

This actually worked well, if you did it fast and hard, before your attacker destroys your structure. The trouble is you can't make it work if you are even a little late, or if you pull your punches, while your attacker continues to grapple you with full force. That's always a problem with testing a striking art vs. grappling.

 

[geezer]

Geezer - that second escape is a totally valid one, although the demonstration video was technically sloppy and missing some details (from my BJJ perspective). However it does depend on you being able to insert a frame to hold the attacker's head back for the leg hook. If he keeps his head tight and low, then you have to transition to a different technique. Which one depends on how he has his body and legs positioned. I wouldn't advocate escapes that depend on attacking the eyes and throat because the guy on top has even better access to attacking your eyes and it's probably best not to give him ideas.

Yeah -- this is what he did (see bolded text above) ...at one point I hooked his head but he was able to use one arm to pass the leg over and slip his head under and out of it. At brief instant, when he only had one arm around my neck, I thought I would get free, but he's very strong and by that point had me pinned with his full weight of about 240. Anyway at that point my "anti-grappling" had failed and I was immersed in full grappling. So I tapped out.

As I see it, "anti-grappling" is momentary countering to escape/counter/reverse and get back to your striking game. If it is going to work, it has to work at that initial moment your opponent tries to move the fight into the clinch. Otherwise you better be the better grappler. Actually, that --training to be a really good grappler too-- would be the ideal in my opinion, except I have badly herniated disks in my lower back and my Doc said that my brilliant plan to learn BJJ would be nuts at my age with this condition. Still, I think about it a lot....

 

[mook jong man]

Mook, I used to think you were smart. Now I'm guessing that you are psychic. Yes, the attacker enters from the outside and headlocks you from the side, bending you over forwards and then punches your face. See the rather flowery and compliant version below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9x3ACeG1gY&list=PL5A8D582A7B79EBDB&index=4

Except, at my urging, my opponent cranked the headlock really tight, and from his own experience turned his hips sideways to cover his groin. Then he took me straight down to the floor. We don't have any mats yet. So I went with it pressing his face back and attempted to break free by hooking his head with my leg. Check out the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys5uDTMEjdY&list=PL5A8D582A7B79EBDB&index=5

Usually this works for me, but this time my partner ducked the leg hook used his strength and weight (240lbs.) to cinch up the headlockv very tight and really crush me with his body ...and he was still holding back some. I did have access to his eyes and throat, but he's a tough old boy and wouldn't yield short of me doing some real damage. And even if I had forced him to release, it's irrelevant. By that point, the intended techniques had failed.

If it's just the average garden variety type of headlock then striking straight into the groin with a palm strike or hook punch as you are bent forward will work.

But in the second video the attacker is pretty much jumping into the air and crashing down onto his victim.
There is a lot of momentum in that , so there is no doubt you will end up on the ground.

From there the main objective as you were trying to do is to guard yourself from punches and try to get their head back as you were doing , so you can hook your leg over.

The method you use to get the head back is up to you , in some styles they will use a frame to get the head back.
In Krav Maga they will put their hand over your face with their fingers in your eyes and their thumb underneath your nose.
The fingers in the eyes you can live with buts it's no picnic , what really gets your head moving back is the thumb pushing up under your nose.

Also don't forget to try and move onto your side so he can't crush your chest with his bodyweight and mess up your breathing.

 

[yak sao]

This actually worked well, if you did it fast and hard, before your attacker destroys your structure. The trouble is you can't make it work if you are even a little late, or if you pull your punches, while your attacker continues to grapple you with full force. That's always a problem with testing a striking art vs. grappling.

So true.
Even though we've never met, I have a good indication of the type of person that you are. You are not going to hurt a student so that you can "save face".
Had you actually unleashed what you are capable of doing then there would not have been an issue.

 

[yak sao]

If he's at your side, still wedge in with your legs allowing your whole body to occupy his space.
If the leg closer to him is "tied up"aginst his closest leg to you, then either wedge your closer leg into his rear leg (going behind him)or you can step through with the other leg (what would be considered your back leg)

Also, to clarify what I said earlier, if bent over at the waist, to regain your structure, don't think of the "good morning" weight training exercise, which is all from the waist; think of getting down under him and squatting, driving your whole body up and into him.
I've done this against some big guys who out weigh me by a lot and also against some guys with various grappling skills (judo, BJJ, catch wrestling, etc) and it's worked well.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I do not do CMA and really looking at the three initial video clips in my opinion Obasi just let Emin do his thing. In the second one he broke out regularly and in the third he brought it or tried to dominate. So I would have to agree that comparing the three clips and trying to determine who is better aka Emin, Kwok or Williams or Obasi for that matter is pretty hard.

However, I have seen the William Cheung and Emin Boztep video clip of the fight from the seminar. What I see is an older man squared off against a younger guy. The younger guy is in better shape and takes the fight to an area the older guy is unfamiliar with. (Emin was after all by all accounts a wrestler in school) So what is interesting in this example is that there is little doubt that William Cheung was the better Wing Chun practitioner at this point in time but the altercation went to an area he was not good in and Emin was. On a final note attribute wise Emin at that point was in far better physical shape than Cheung as well. Which brings us to the point of my post. You can be a better technician but...... you also better be in good shape and not so one dimensional. Personally I feel that all martial practitioners need to make sure they are in really good shape at a level way above your average human. Get of your butt and work out and don't make the rest of us look bad. Just my 02.

 

[mook jong man]

If he's at your side, still wedge in with your legs allowing your whole body to occupy his space.
If the leg closer to him is "tied up"aginst his closest leg to you, then either wedge your closer leg into his rear leg (going behind him)or you can step through with the other leg (what would be considered your back leg)

Also, to clarify what I said earlier, if bent over at the waist, to regain your structure, don't think of the "good morning" weight training exercise, which is all from the waist; think of getting down under him and squatting, driving your whole body up and into him.
I've done this against some big guys who out weigh me by a lot and also against some guys with various grappling skills (judo, BJJ, catch wrestling, etc) and it's worked well.

I saw one of my instructors do something like that years ago.
He used the last movements from the Bil Gee form.
He just stood straight up and rotated his arms up and back like in Bil Gee and the guy was thrown right off.
I don't remember if he draped his arm over the top and put it under the guys chin or just did it from underneath the guys arms.

It was a long time ago so I can't exactly remember how he did it , but I remember being very impressed.
But I think it may have worked similar to the way you are describing , having your near leg at the back of his leg , so his leg is trapped and then just coming straight up with the Bil Gee posture so he loses balance.

 

[mook jong man]

The instructor I was taking about in the earlier post was formerly a wrestling champion in NZ.
Another one he used to do was reach behind with his hand and pinch the back of your thigh up near your butt cheek.
The pain was so excruciating that you just had to let go of the head lock.

Still with another one .
If the head lock was on and they were both pretty much still upright he would turn towards the opponent and do a simultaneous palm strike on the guys back and front , it looked like he was clapping his hands.
Might not sound like an orthodox way to generate power , but from the sound of it and the look of shock on the guys face I was glad he wasn't doing it to me.

 

[geezer]

Get of your butt and work out and don't make the rest of us look bad. Just my 02.

Ouch. The truth hurts! LOL

 

[mook jong man]

I did this workout this afternoon
warm up
2oo punches on the wallbag.
20 medium heel kicks each side on the low section of the wallbag.

workout
3 x 30 double hand swings with 16kg kettlebell / 30 secs rest between sets.
4 X 1 min on the skipping rope at fast pace / 30 secs rest between sets

Only a total of 7 minutes work , but when your going hard those 7 minutes seem to take forever.
Finished with 3 x 10 hanging leg raises off the chin up bar.
Then Sil Lum Tao , Chum Kiu and Bil Gee.
Walked the dogs for 40 minutes because dogs have to have their workout too.
Haven't picked up the kettlebell for a while so I am going to be feeling it tomorrow.

 

[yak sao]

Walked the dogs for 40 minutes because dogs have to have their workout too.
Haven't picked up the kettlebell for a while so I am going to be feeling it tomorrow.

Get the dogs a treadmill .Then they can work out alongside you.

 

[mook jong man]

Get the dogs a treadmill .Then they can work out alongside you.

I've put them on our treadmill before , one of them is ok with it , but the other one freaks out because he can't understand why he's running and doesn't seem to go anywhere.
Plus they get to see possums when we go out for a walk and that seems to be the main attraction for them.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Owww.. my upper thigh.. going to remember that one for sure..

 

[Domino]

Im late on this one but my opinion is good on him for getting in the ring first of all, I think he needs some cardio in my opinion.
With regards to chi sau, I have seen other videos of Mr Williams being disrespectful to other teachers himself, so who knows, ego gets in the way.