Self Training...

[Charles Mahan]

How did the Martial Arts develop originally? ?

In a crucible where those who had good ideas that worked, lived long enough to pass it on to the next generation. The next generation worked on the system and the ideas that survived the battlefield were passed on to the next generation. Bad ideas died on the battlefield and never made it to the next generation.

That crucible no longer exists for weapon arts. You can come up with all the nifty ideas you want, but with no ability to test them in actual combat, they could very well be utter garbage.

 

[MA-Caver]

In a crucible where those who had good ideas that worked, lived long enough to pass it on to the next generation. The next generation worked on the system and the ideas that survived the battlefield were passed on to the next generation. Bad ideas died on the battlefield and never made it to the next generation.

That crucible no longer exists for weapon arts. You can come up with all the nifty ideas you want, but with no ability to test them in actual combat, they could very well be utter garbage.

Yes, I agree. It's one thing to pratice and go whole hog with Kendo style bamboo swords and heavily padded protection and full face masks. A guy can get hit in a vital area and will keep going (egotistical psychological testosteroned juvenile thinking of didn't hit me that hard) as compared to a razor sharp instrument that, if wielded correctly doesn't need a whole lot of power to enter the human body, will slice and dice and cut into a vital and leave one laying on the floor dying or already there.
Gotta admire those japanese/europeans who faced one another off with swords. They were brave and or fantatical enough to not care. I've personally been cut (in fights) by knives and it hurts dammit, likewise with these fellows they have their training scars and learned the lessons inherient with those. Scroo around this much and you're just dead.
Good points Charles.

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

Well then, I guess it's my turn to put in my two cents. I believe that the advantages to self teaching andlearning from a master are self-evident.
In teaching oneself, one creates a style that is a perfect match for their strength, their size, their speed, their build,etc. The style you create for yourself is going to be, at its pinnacle, more effectively put to use by you than any style you were taught by another. You will have complete and absolute understanding of it, and thus everything about it will come to you effotlessly, thoughtlessly, and tirelessly.
The major advantage of being taught is speed. The speed at which one can learn a style as compared to creating one of their own is nearly incomparable. Reasonably speaking, one can achieve nearly complete mastery of a given martial art in perhaps ten years. To create one's own......as much as a lifetime.
As far as the safety issue is concerned, if you're not willing to deal with the possible consequences, don't play with swords.

 

[Bester]

And you base this on how many decades of training?

You have trained how long?

I know people who have spent 50 years training in an art, and they all indicate they are far from "Perfect Mastery". Of course, I guess if you make up the steps as you go, you'll be perfect.

 

[Bester]

Sure, but the problem is that they are presumably "trial and erroring" against other untrained swordsmen. The odds say that they produce crap most of the time.

Lamont

How was it said?

3 types of opponents:
-80% untrained
-18% trained but in a different art
- 2% trained as you?

Percentages may be off, but I believe the breakdown is correct.

So, if you are untrained, and your opponent is untrained, you'll just flail away and get lucky. Anyone can pull off a trick once. Doing it repeatedly, thats different.

 

[Swordlady]

As far as the safety issue is concerned, if you're not willing to deal with the possible consequences, don't play with swords.

I forgot to ask, are you training with sharp blades? I hope you're not!

 

[Swordlady]

Steve, I also encourage you and other "self-taught" swordsmen to read this thread: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083

The fellow in question, Don Rice, is also "self-taught" - but made one tragic mistake that resulted in this:

He was fortunate in not losing his left arm, but that arm is still crippled. He only has the use of two fingers in his left hand.

This thread should be a lesson about the dangers of teaching yourself swordsmanship. Don't do it!

 

[Paul B]

I guess it's my turn to be the party-pooper.

Well then, I guess it's my turn to put in my two cents. I believe that the advantages to self teaching andlearning from a master are self-evident.

Yes..they should be. The "Master" has spent a lifetime learning and trying to perfect the subtle nuances that "make" the Art. Are you suggesting that you "know better" than someone who's been practicing longer than you've been alive?....uh uh. It is highly unlikely that a juvenile with no practical experience or basis,reading books or watching video tapes would be able to even come close in terms of "Mastery"..it's just not going to happen.

In teaching oneself, one creates a style that is a perfect match for their strength, their size, their speed, their build,etc. The style you create for yourself is going to be, at its pinnacle, more effectively put to use by you than any style you were taught by another. You will have complete and absolute understanding of it, and thus everything about it will come to you effotlessly, thoughtlessly, and tirelessly.

In teaching oneself..you scrape the surface and end up with bad habits. I've seen it a hundred times. Again..no one to teach you the simple but subtle differences in technique and execution and about a thousand other things you won't see on your own.

The major advantage of being taught is speed. The speed at which one can learn a style as compared to creating one of their own is nearly incomparable. Reasonably speaking, one can achieve nearly complete mastery of a given martial art in perhaps ten years. To create one's own......as much as a lifetime.

There is no advantage at all. There is no comparison at all. What you're contemplating doing is coming up with something that resembles sword work..but sword work it ain't. Please don't think that it is.

As far as the safety issue is concerned, if you're not willing to deal with the possible consequences, don't play with swords.

The only thing I see coming out of this is bad technique. What is the hang-up with actually learning to crawl before you try to run? What everyone here is trying to say is there is a process to go through in learning a sword art. You can start where you're supposed to,and be good. Or you can learn on your own and pretty much suck. That my friend is the truth. Take care.

 

[howard]

...Reasonably speaking, one can achieve nearly complete mastery of a given martial art in perhaps ten years...

Sorry, hope I don't offend you, but imo that's just way wide of the mark.

If you don't believe me, try out a traditional Hapkido school. Or a traditional Jujutsu school. Or even a traditional sword art school.

If you can achieve "nearly complete mastery" at any of these arts in ten years, you are truly remarkable.

 

[shesulsa]

A bell keeps ringing in the back of my mind ... "re-inventing the wheel" it seems to ring ....

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Well then, I guess it's my turn to put in my two cents. I believe that the advantages to self teaching andlearning from a master are self-evident.
In teaching oneself, one creates a style that is a perfect match for their strength, their size, their speed, their build,etc. The style you create for yourself is going to be, at its pinnacle, more effectively put to use by you than any style you were taught by another. You will have complete and absolute understanding of it, and thus everything about it will come to you effotlessly, thoughtlessly, and tirelessly.
The major advantage of being taught is speed. The speed at which one can learn a style as compared to creating one of their own is nearly incomparable. Reasonably speaking, one can achieve nearly complete mastery of a given martial art in perhaps ten years. To create one's own......as much as a lifetime.
As far as the safety issue is concerned, if you're not willing to deal with the possible consequences, don't play with swords.

complete nonsense

you can create a style of inevitable injury, bad technique, bad timing, no understanding of timing or distance, strategy......the list goes on. if you think you can fight effortlessly with something you just whipped up by swinging a sword around, try fighting someone with about ten years experience under their belt......they should be a master by then, and im sure they might even let you have a weapon while they fight you empty handed.

sheesh

 

[evenflow1121]

Well then, I guess it's my turn to put in my two cents. I believe that the advantages to self teaching andlearning from a master are self-evident.
In teaching oneself, one creates a style that is a perfect match for their strength, their size, their speed, their build,etc. The style you create for yourself is going to be, at its pinnacle, more effectively put to use by you than any style you were taught by another. You will have complete and absolute understanding of it, and thus everything about it will come to you effotlessly, thoughtlessly, and tirelessly.
The major advantage of being taught is speed. The speed at which one can learn a style as compared to creating one of their own is nearly incomparable. Reasonably speaking, one can achieve nearly complete mastery of a given martial art in perhaps ten years. To create one's own......as much as a lifetime.
As far as the safety issue is concerned, if you're not willing to deal with the possible consequences, don't play with swords.

10 yrs does not make you a master, people can train in the MA's for years 10 and over and only hold a nidan or less. I am not really sure its a matter of consequences as it is a matter of quality. Swashbuckling a sword around will not teach you how to effectively use it, the stances, the proper movements, ect. Safety is also important for another reason, and that being that when you the self practioner thinks he is ready to spar with another, you may execute something you deemed effective only to God forbid permanently injure yourself or worse. While you are correct that you may have a complete understanding of your self taught style, since it is your style, whether it is effective should be the ultimate goal, if you cant hold a sword properly you may be in trouble.

 

[Shane Smith]

Intense sparring and skilled training partners and/or instruction are crucial for good hilt-work in my opinion and experience;

 

[Bester]

Steve, I also encourage you and other "self-taught" swordsmen to read this thread: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083

The fellow in question, Don Rice, is also "self-taught" - but made one tragic mistake that resulted in this:

He was fortunate in not losing his left arm, but that arm is still crippled. He only has the use of two fingers in his left hand.

This thread should be a lesson about the dangers of teaching yourself swordsmanship. Don't do it!

OUCH!

And he had experience. I pity the "know it all" kids who know little to nothing about swords who think that the $12 wall hanger they got at the flea market will hold up to more than a couple strikes before shattering, or actually spend the cash for a real sword and end up injured or crippled because they are "Discovering their personal style" or some other stupidity.

Hey dumb kids - Even gladiators trained with wooden weapons until they really had the hang of it. If you can't be at least as smart as a barbarian, you have no business playing with live steel.

 

[arnisador]

A fellow FMAer with whom I was cross-training this even cut his finger to the bone while cleaning a sword he was giving me as a gift. It's easy to do! Nice sword, though.

 

[MA-Caver]

...Reasonably speaking, one can achieve nearly complete mastery of a given martial art in perhaps ten years...

I think that is a mis-statement and a half. Not even nearly complete mastery of any system in ten years. One can study sword arts (or any martial art) their whole lives and be real real good at it... but having complete mastery (or nearly)? I personally don't think so.
For one (particularly with sword-arts) how will one be able to test themselves against actual opponents. Real-life-to-the-death-combat? It doesn't happen anymore... unless you're living in Austrailia wink1: ). Even then one won't really know until they pit themselves against another sword master. Now-a-days it doesn't happen.
Would one consider fighting with bokens a true test of one's skill? Gonna probably end up bruised and battered but at least pieces of you aren't all over the floor. But fighting with a live blade where you know certian cuts here and there will debilitate your opponent til they bleed out and grow weak and thus make the fatal mistake for that fatal cut/stab.
But either way, I don't believe anyone will become a complete master at ANYthing because it's a continual growth process. Even if you take a child at say five and begin training them til they're 40 they're not going to learn everything... mainly because no-one person knows everything (about sword arts) and you can't always convince those "masters" to teach everything they know... even nearly everything.

Not dissing you just what you said...

 

[Gene Williams]

You may try to teach yourself kenjutsu in the Japanese tradition, but you are only going to be laughed at ( I mean knee slapping, gut pounding laughter) by serious practitioners of the art or by anyone of a serious mind who knows anything about traditional martial arts. The people I have seen on video who are "self taught" look like idiots. But, there are a lot of those out there and you will be in your comfort zone. Go for it!

 

[Franc0]

When I think of someone "Self Teaching" themselves in something as technical as KenJutsu, a saying comes to mind about criminals that defend themselves in court. Something along the lines of "Having a fool for a client"? :whip:

Franco

 

[Grenadier]

In teaching oneself, one creates a style that is a perfect match for their strength, their size, their speed, their build,etc. The style you create for yourself is going to be, at its pinnacle, more effectively put to use by you than any style you were taught by another. You will have complete and absolute understanding of it, and thus everything about it will come to you effotlessly, thoughtlessly, and tirelessly.

Maybe in an ideal situation, where everything just happens to fall into place, and the "soke" of this new style is incredibly lucky, perhaps the new style could have its own merits. However, without experienced guidance, how would the "soke" know if things are OK?

There can be mechanical flaws in the techniques of this new "style," and that these flaws can, over the period of years, create some very bad habits, and cause injuries to the practitioner, and I'm not referring to blade-based injuries! These flawed mechanics could have easily been seen and corrected, had an experienced teacher given some instruction. How many untrained people take undisciplined swings, and end up putting undue stress on the ligaments?

The major advantage of being taught is speed. The speed at which one can learn a style as compared to creating one of their own is nearly incomparable.

But what does the new style end up becoming? To put things in perspective, sure, any character with no experience in construction can build a hut out of straw and mud, and have his own "home," but an experienced house builder will need to take months to build his brick and mortar home.

If the inexperienced builder asks the experienced builder to help him, the experienced builder will tell him that he should learn how to build a brick and mortar home instead of relying on straw and mud. Even if the inexperienced builder tells the experienced builder that he doesn't want to build a brick and mortar home, at least the experienced builder can still offer a few pointers that can make the straw and mud hut a bit more... liveable, so that the roof won't come crashing down during that first storm.

Reasonably speaking, one can achieve nearly complete mastery of a given martial art in perhaps ten years.

I disagree with you on this matter. I've been training in martial arts for almost 20 years, and would never consider myself a master in any of the styles I've studied. Proficient? Yes, but I probably have several more decades of training and study before I can consider myself to be even in the vicinity of the same bubble (and a BIG bubble it truly is) as a "master" would be.

As far as the safety issue is concerned, if you're not willing to deal with the possible consequences, don't play with swords.

The dangers can be minimized if proper, safe instruction is given. There's no sense in telling someone not to engage in sword training, when such people can be gradually brought up to the point where they can practice safe handling and training. I would never give an inexperienced person a live sword for training purposes. Even if someone were willing to deal with the consequences right off the bat, they are not ready. This is why training is done with wooden (or even bamboo or ratan) weapons instead of steel.

It's the same thing when I teach people how to shoot firearms. I'm not about to let a newbie handle my S&W 629 without significant training. To let a newbie fire a full power .44 magnum right away would accomplish nothing, and would possibly even drive them away from the world of shooting.

If they haven't had any experience with firearms, and are afraid to handle things, then I'll bring them in gradually, teaching them to handle non-firing replicas in a safe manner. This helps overcome the fear, and also instills the principles of safety and responsibility.

Once they have demonstrated the above, I'll start people on my Ruger 22/45, and let them enjoy some plinking with some light, subsonic .22 LR loads, and when they have demonstrated the ability to shoot, and showing proper mechanics, I'll gently bump them up to some powderpuff .38 Special or 9 mm loads. After they've become comfortable with these loads, then I'll let them fire full power 9 mm loads, and eventually work their way up. If I notice that they start developing bad habits (trigger control, flinching, etc), I'll help them correct their mechanical flaws.

Even though some of these folks could probably have figured out everything on their own, I know that I helped cut down the chances of something bad happening, and they're better off because of it.

Anyways, I've stated my opinions, and hope that this can bring a new perspective to you. One way or the other, I wish you the best of success with your training, and hope that you will take the initiative, and at least seek out some experienced training partners.

Regards,

Ron

 

[Shibumi]

I occasionally try some of the empty hand kata with a weapon just to see what adapts or "feels" right. I got a bokken to play with, and one of the first things I did was hit myself in the knee with it. I'm very thankful it wasn't a real blade or I would be walking with a permanent limp. I do have a "ninja-to" I bought at the local Bud-K "weapons" store to see if I could sharpen a 20 inch blade. The jury is still out on that, but as it is full tang, I can chop weeds and branches with it. I have found it to be challenging just to swing a blade in a straight path, stab in a straight line, or slice along a straight line. Unless an Iai instructor moves to my town, I think I will just stick to chopping weeds. "fore ah hart meself"