Self Defense for Women

[Steve]

Sexual harassment and assault aren't the same thing. They're not even in the same league. Not that I condone harassment but saying words (harassment) is not the same as putting your hands on them (assault). The law treats them differently, at least in the US. As a federal employee, I have this stuff stuffed down my throat on a continuous basis. As for harassment being illegal, it's not. I could walk up to a woman and make lewd comments and there's not anything she could do about it other than file a restraining order if I continue to do it. As soon as my hand touches her, say grabbing her ***, that's assault and I could wind up in jail. In a work environment, many companies have policies in place to discourage said behavior though as it doesn't make for a productive work environment with harassment being allowed.

Okay, I'll take another stab at this and let it go, because it's clearly a sensitive issue with you guys.

Sexual Harassment is illegal. It is an illegal activity that exists in the workplace.

As you say, making lewd comments outside of work is douchey, but not illegal. Making lewd comments at work, to the extent that a hostile work environment has been created is called Sexual Harassment, and is illegal. You're confusing the general act of harassing someone with the legal term, "Harassment."

Guys, harassment can involve unwelcome sexual advances or touching while at work. As DD pointed out, sexual harassment and sexual assault at work are often the same thing.

@Jenna, the only reason I'm trying to highlight the distinction here is that it is very unhelpful when one person is talking about one thing and another is talking about something else. Watergal mentioned a person being groped while at work and highlighted a reality that a lot of people (mostly women) face that goes unreported, where someone you trust or who is in a position of authority is abusing that authority. In my opinion, self defense is contextual. The right thing to do in one situation is not the same as in others, and truly, sometimes, it's not so easy. As some here have pointed out, if the person is a drunk family member, a long time friend of the family, a coworker, a boss... all of that comes into play. A lewd comment is not the same thing as a grope, which isn't the same thing as rape, which isn't attempted murder. Conflating all of these things and talking about them all as though the right response is to break the bad guy just isn't helpful or realistic. In my opinion.

And the defensive reactions I got were telling. We have a few guys here who think they know what women should do, are arguing with women who are trying to articulate their experiences, and get butthurt when a thread about women's self defense doesn't also consider that men are sometimes also sexually harassed (an important discussion, but not the subject of this thread).

 

[WaterGal]

And... out of a job? Seriously? You're suggesting anyone (of either gender) should continue working in a place where they have been sexually assaulted???
And I'm pretty sure you're backwards on who would get sued. I suspect the company will be shitting bricks over the lawsuit they could face for allowing a sexual predator to run rampant through the corporate halls. And if they fired you for defending yourself? Please... Make my case even stronger, thank you.

I think - like a lot of decent men - you're unaware of how common sexual harassment in the workplace is. If you're a woman working in retail or food service, for example, there really is no job where someone (whether your employer, coworker, or customer) doesn't try to sexually harass you or touch you inappropriately at some point. And if you complain about it, well, usually "it's not that bad", "you should be flattered", "you're being a *****", "don't ruin his career over something little like that", "you can't prove that", "don't stir up trouble", etc. Unless the guy is is stupid enough to sexually harass/assault you in front of a camera or in front of his boss who doesn't have the same mindset as him, the company will generally not do anything, and you may lose your job for "assaulting someone" or causing trouble by complaining.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think - like a lot of decent men - you're unaware of how common sexual harassment in the workplace is. If you're a woman working in retail or food service, for example, there really is no job where someone (whether your employer, coworker, or customer) doesn't try to sexually harass you or touch you inappropriately at some point. And if you complain about it, well, usually "it's not that bad", "you should be flattered", "you're being a *****", "don't ruin his career over something little like that", "you can't prove that", "don't stir up trouble", etc. Unless the guy is is stupid enough to sexually harass/assault you in front of a camera or in front of his boss who doesn't have the same mindset as him, the company will generally not do anything, and you may lose your job for "assaulting someone" or causing trouble by complaining.

Or perhaps I am very aware of it, and that's why it pisses me off.

 

[WaterGal]

You questioned why the person would stay in that job, and suggested that if a woman complains about sexual harassment or groping the company will punish the perpetrator. That's why I assumed that you didn't know. If you do, and your answer is that women should change jobs every few months and break people's bones on a regular basis to establish boundaries, I don't really know what to say to that.

 

[Jenna]

@Steve you are saying what is to be done defensively is dependent upon context yes that make sense totally.. I would respond that first, it is not always certain that one "lesser" infraction is precursor to a more serious assault and so in practice it is not always simple to produce any kind of "graded" response to definitions in a situation where on the one hand the reaction is complete shock to a sudden attack, and on the other extreme of longer term abuse, the victim seem to me often completely subordinated to the abuser.

In many cases I have seen, the severity of the trauma causes the mind to blank itself off, yes? I do not know how that fits here with our SD thinking? I can only think that muscle memory can prevail were someone sufficiently trained to act.

I do not wish to digress either. I do not disagree that clarity that you are seeking is a good thing. My point is just that while definitions are a crucial part of legal process what is also pertinent is what is to be done by the person on the receipt of non-consensual approaches of any kind. How often is that response a physical defence, which is how many on a martial arts site would picture it?? I do not know the reported statistics of it. Other times where acts have been committed over a longer timespan the response is seeking out side assistance as @JowGaWolf suggested. Determining how to take the step to seek that out side assistance is horrendously difficult for most. This is some kind of SD by definition and but not what we usually discuss here.

I think it is an emotive issue, yes? My experience is that it seem to affect or has affected more people than are usually willing to speak about it, I could only suggest perhaps that is why people are passionate in their posts like above? Thank you for your discussion, Jxx

 

[kuniggety]

Sexual Harassment is illegal. It is an illegal activity that exists in the workplace.

As you say, making lewd comments outside of work is douchey, but not illegal. Making lewd comments at work, to the extent that a hostile work environment has been created is called Sexual Harassment, and is illegal. You're confusing the general act of harassing someone with the legal term, "Harassment."

Guys, harassment can involve unwelcome sexual advances or touching while at work. As DD pointed out, sexual harassment and sexual assault at work are often the same thing.

The difference is that sexual harassment, in the workplace, is illegal for the workplace to condone/allow. They will get in trouble for it and so it is usually their policy not to tolerate it (ie you'll get fired). Sexual harassment and sexual assault are not one and the same in the world place. Once you touch someone, that's sexual assault, and that's illegal for you to do and you can go to jail/prison for it. That's inside or outside of a workplace.

 

[Steve]

The difference is that sexual harassment, in the workplace, is illegal for the workplace to condone/allow. They will get in trouble for it and so it is usually their policy not to tolerate it (ie you'll get fired). Sexual harassment and sexual assault are not one and the same in the world place. Once you touch someone, that's sexual assault, and that's illegal for you to do and you can go to jail/prison for it. That's inside or outside of a workplace.

Can you go to prison for breaking someone's arm?

How often do you think that a woman (or sometimes, a man) is inappropriately touched while at work? Watergal has suggested that it is just a matter of time.

If you're a woman working in retail or food service, for example, there really is no job where someone (whether your employer, coworker, or customer) doesn't try to sexually harass you or touch you inappropriately at some point.

Kuniggety, just think about the implications of that statement. In food service or retail "there really is no job where someone doesn't sexually harass you or touch you inappropriately at some point."

I truly understand what you're saying, and believe that the disagreement here is simply the difference between principles (what should be) and reality (what is). Harassment of any kind is illegal. People SHOULDN'T do it. Workplaces SHOULDN'T condone it. If caught, the people who do it and/or condone it SHOULD be held accountable. And if a person is harassed or sexually assaulted (in any context) they SHOULD be able to bring their case forward, be treated with respect, be listened to and be helped.

What actually DOES happen is far more complicated and far less grounded in the principles of the situation.

So, like many discussions about self defense, we have some people discussing what SHOULD happen and other people discussing what ACTUALLY happens. Harassment is underreported. We know that. And of those cases that are reported, most of the time the repercussions are inadequate.

AND, all of that being said, breaking someone's arm or smashing them to unconsciousness is not ALWAYS an appropriate response.

 

[kuniggety]

Steve, I really for the most part agree with you. Sexual harassment in the work place is also defined as someone in a person of authority using lewd comments/suggestions as an abuse of their position. I think it's part of just being an overall ******* but no, you're not going to assault someone for being an *******. The same goes for someone not in a position of authority saying something you don't like. I'm what you would describe as a non-politically correct guy. I make off color jokes. I also watch my audience and, especially females, I usually wait for them to make some sort of joke before I ever do.

That all aside, there is a line that is crossed if a guy actually TOUCHES a woman. If that's pinching/grabbing her ***, massaging her shoulders after she has made it clear it's not welcome, etc. she has every right to put that guy on the ground. That's self defense. If a woman has repercussions for defending herself, then she can sue the company (and will win). The man has no right to touch her and a person ALWAYS has the right to self-defense. Does she need to throw him on the ground, break his arm, and then proceed to choke him out? That's going to be overkill but if a man gets hurt while she's defending herself then that's his fault for attacking her in the first place.

 

[drop bear]

If I had bashed all the guys that had wanted to touch me inappropriately. By arms would be bloody stumps from the elbows down.

 

[hoshin1600]

Steve, I really for the most part agree with you. Sexual harassment in the work place is also defined as someone in a person of authority using lewd comments/suggestions as an abuse of their position. I think it's part of just being an overall ******* but no, you're not going to assault someone for being an *******. The same goes for someone not in a position of authority saying something you don't like. I'm what you would describe as a non-politically correct guy. I make off color jokes. I also watch my audience and, especially females, I usually wait for them to make some sort of joke before I ever do.

That all aside, there is a line that is crossed if a guy actually TOUCHES a woman. If that's pinching/grabbing her ***, massaging her shoulders after she has made it clear it's not welcome, etc. she has every right to put that guy on the ground. That's self defense. If a woman has repercussions for defending herself, then she can sue the company (and will win). The man has no right to touch her and a person ALWAYS has the right to self-defense. Does she need to throw him on the ground, break his arm, and then proceed to choke him out? That's going to be overkill but if a man gets hurt while she's defending herself then that's his fault for attacking her in the first place.

I am not a lawyer. ..this is not legal advise... (thanks for the quote Bill)
If a women is being sexually harassed she is not defending her safety. She will not be seen as defending herself against an assault and battery. The court will argue that at no time did Ms. X fear for her safety and well being.
What she would be defending is her personal space and principles. Any physical response attempted by her is clearly an assault and could be charged as such. There is a prescribed response to the situation and it is to talk to human resouces and report it, or to the authorities if you are out on the street in which in most cases nothing happens. Unfortunately many men imagine themselves in that situation and the male ego dominance BS comes into play....think about the rape crisis in prison. Most males talk big saying it ain't gonna happen to me, I'll do ....xxxx.... yattaa yaatta shut up, your not going to do a damn thing. unless you have Been there you have no idea what you are really going to do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It is not really that there are not outright maniacs out there. Guys and girls.

But you can't work on the assumption that everyone you have conflict with is one of those maniacs. You are just rationalising your own bad behaviour.

The way I deal with people and conflict is not to assume that they won't do something crazy. If I'm in a conflict with someone then I'm not going to assume that he won't punch me in the face. I rather accept that is a possibility and position myself to be able to deal with that. If I'm wrong then nothing happens. If I'm right then I'm prepared. If I take your approach and assume that someone won't do something. In your case, if I'm right nothing happens, if I'm wrong then I'm the one getting punched in the face, unprepared.

It is not really that there are not outright maniacs out there. Guys and girls.

But you can't work on the assumption that everyone you have conflict with is one of those maniacs. You are just rationalising your own bad behaviour.

I don't assume that a person who is "not in their right mind" to have rational decision making capabilities. I also don't expect their behavior to be normal or even beneficial to themselves or me. I also don't expect them to be stable in with their emotions or actions.

In the U.S. the police who make traffic stops are train to approach the car in a certain manner to help minimize their risk in the event that the driver does something crazy. They do this regardless of who you are. So is that them rationalizing their own bad behavior? The problem with people who aren't in their right mind is that you don't know what they will do or if something will send them off into a violent rage.
"The video released by her force showed her attacker, Craig Radbourne, apparently drunk, in handcuffs and protesting in a squad car before he lashes out." Source

And before the comments come out that he acted this way because he didn't want to get arrested. Keep in mind that he may be someones boyfriend or husband and it happens all the time. The wife or girlfriend says something to the drunken husband or boyfriend and it sets him off into a rage. The police officer took your approach and got her head smashed on the ground for that decision. Had she taken my approach she would have closed the door then asked the questions or she would have created more distance than she did. Closing the door would have eliminated the risk of him attacker her like that all together.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here's a woman using self-defense
This is a woman who gets groped on the bus and fights back.
The things that I like about this is that she confronted the guy, she let him know right away that she didn't like what he did.
I also like that she turns around and confronts him in a fighting stance. I'm assuming that he spat on her which is why she punched him.
I like that she fights against him trying to pull her off the bus instead of trying to fight and pull at the same time. All of her energy is focused on not letting that happen.
Here's another

And another

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I had bashed all the guys that had wanted to touch me inappropriately. By arms would be bloody stumps from the elbows down.

Wanting to touch you inappropriately isn't the same as actually doing it. And I if they did it, I hope you let them know in a firm way that it wasn't appropriate.

 

[drop bear]

Wanting to touch you inappropriately isn't the same as actually doing it. And I if they did it, I hope you let them know in a firm way that it wasn't appropriate.

I work with drunk guys. Of course they actually did it. Going from trying to hug me to trying to punch me is pretty common.

And it depended on how I read the guy. If it stopped a conflict. I put up with it.

 

[drop bear]

The way I deal with people and conflict is not to assume that they won't do something crazy. If I'm in a conflict with someone then I'm not going to assume that he won't punch me in the face. I rather accept that is a possibility and position myself to be able to deal with that. If I'm wrong then nothing happens. If I'm right then I'm prepared. If I take your approach and assume that someone won't do something. In your case, if I'm right nothing happens, if I'm wrong then I'm the one getting punched in the face, unprepared.
I don't assume that a person who is "not in their right mind" to have rational decision making capabilities. I also don't expect their behavior to be normal or even beneficial to themselves or me. I also don't expect them to be stable in with their emotions or actions.

In the U.S. the police who make traffic stops are train to approach the car in a certain manner to help minimize their risk in the event that the driver does something crazy. They do this regardless of who you are. So is that them rationalizing their own bad behavior? The problem with people who aren't in their right mind is that you don't know what they will do or if something will send them off into a violent rage.
"The video released by her force showed her attacker, Craig Radbourne, apparently drunk, in handcuffs and protesting in a squad car before he lashes out." Source

And before the comments come out that he acted this way because he didn't want to get arrested. Keep in mind that he may be someones boyfriend or husband and it happens all the time. The wife or girlfriend says something to the drunken husband or boyfriend and it sets him off into a rage. The police officer took your approach and got her head smashed on the ground for that decision. Had she taken my approach she would have closed the door then asked the questions or she would have created more distance than she did. Closing the door would have eliminated the risk of him attacker her like that all together.

You are not closing a door or making yourself safe. You are laying a violent beat down on every guy you get physical with in case they turn out to be a legitimate baddie. And not someone who has just done a brain fart.

You basically become that guy. Who cannot control his responses

 

[JowGaWolf]

I work with drunk guys. Of course they actually did it. Going from trying to hug me to trying to punch me is pretty common.

And it depended on how I read the guy. If it stopped a conflict. I put up with it.

that's right your job is the exception. I'll have to keep that in mind.

 

[drop bear]

that's right your job is the exception. I'll have to keep that in mind.

I didn't work in a bubble. It was still real life. I just had to come up with tactics that did not involve belting people.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You are not closing a door or making yourself safe. You are laying a violent beat down on every guy you get physical with in case they turn out to be a legitimate baddie. And not someone who has just done a brain fart.

You basically become that guy. Who cannot control his responses

If my response is predetermined and planned then it is controlled at the highest level. Uncontrolled responses are done on impulse.

 

[drop bear]

If my response is predetermined and planned then it is controlled at the highest level. Uncontrolled responses are done on impulse.

Creating a rational to excuse your response is not the same as having control over your response

 

[Steve]

If my response is predetermined and planned then it is controlled at the highest level. Uncontrolled responses are done on impulse.

Maybe this is a little too philosophical, but if something is predetermined, is it controlled or uncontrolled? I guess it depends on whether you are the one who predetermined the outcome, or are being controlled by it.