Resolved: Taekwondo is Inherently Bad for Your Body

[Omar B]

I think the positives outweigh the negatives. Sure it's a pounding on your joints, but you can put lots of muscle too which helps greatly. At 16 I broke my knee and the reason I got back full range of motion and power in there is because of training. Our bodies wear out, I think it's better to have a healthy body that wears out because it'll take the repairs better than an unhealthy one.

Besides, there are many ways to train without the harsh snapping motions. For years along with my Seido training I also did Choi Kwang Do which is a style developed specifically to combat the join jarring. It's very circular, flowing and quite frankly it's my second favorite style ever.

 

[dancingalone]

I also did Choi Kwang Do which is a style developed specifically to combat the join jarring. It's very circular, flowing and quite frankly it's my second favorite style ever.

Until you run out of money. I kid, I kid.

 

[Flying Crane]

Seems like there are a couple of threads out right now discussing aspects of this topic.

I've seen people mention stretching and strength training to minimize injury (a practice I would agree with), as well as more drastic measures like painkillers (both over-the-counter and prescriptions) cortisone shots, and surgeries to remove/repair/replace damaged body parts.

What strikes me is this, and this is in part a question: my impression is that even after the drastic measures are taken, I am assuming that people are going back to continue with the very methods that brought about their problems in the first place. Is this what people are doing? Are they using these methods to just keep on doing what injured them in the first place?

If the very methodology is what is causing this kind of injury, why don't people step back and take a closer look at what's going on and make some changes?

I'm not talking about a sparring injury or something. I'm talking about the repeated practices and methods of training that are just grinding down and wearing out body parts far more quickly than they ought to. Don't these injuries raise red flags in people's minds, and cause them to question what's happening and how much worse it might get down the road?

I'm now 38 years old and I've been training since age 13. I continue with a very rigorous training schedule, and I've never yet had a surgery from a training injury. It's rare that I ever need to take an over-the-counter painkiller due to training, and I've never taken a prescription painkiller or had cortisone shots. I stretch regularly and do some moderate strength training, and I just try to train in smart ways that won't cause me injury, either acutely or gradually leading up to something worse.

I've had times when I'd practiced a lot of high kicks, but I don't do a lot of that anymore. I try to be careful when doing any kind of kicks so I don't traumatize my knees or hips or ankles or back.

But good lord, if I ended up with surgery or cortisone shots or prescription medications to deal with long-term gradual injury due simply to the methods I used in training, I think I'd start looking for a different method. After getting out of surgery, I sure as hell wouldn't go back to doing the same thing that brought me into surgery in the first place.

train smart, folks.

 

[dancingalone]

But that's the problem, Michael. A large part of what is now considered canon tae kwon do, namely the high flying kicks added in the sixties, is actually toxic to one's longevity in the art.

 

[terryl965]

Well... SINCE you asked...

Cutting to the chase & minimizing soap boxing (& dramatazation) ... practicing kicks in the air without a solid target to impact... or a partner that won't flinch... is bad news.

It cost me a right leg hyper extension that pulled everything out of my right knee capsule & put it through the meat grinder (literally) called my tibia & fibia when it was all violently sucked back into place just because the ligaments wouldn't stretch anymore.

Sorry to hear that clfsean.

 

[Flying Crane]

But that's the problem, Michael. A large part of what is now considered canon tae kwon do, namely the high flying kicks added in the sixties, is actually toxic to one's longevity in the art.

I would say that perhaps a bigger problem is simply the standing kicks that are done very high, particularly those that raise to the side like roundhouse and side kicks. I think the hip really doesn't like to flex that far, to get those kicks up so high. For a front kick, it's not so bad, but those side and roundhouse kicks just destroy the hips when done high.

I can certainly see inherent problems with the jumping and flying kicks as well. Bad landings as well as strange hip stresses and such.

But these problems aren't only found in the realm of TKD. I've seen it in plenty of other arts as well. Not specifically high kicks, but simply bad practice methods. Methods that are almost guaranteed to bring about injury at some point, because they stress the knee or the hip or the ankle, or back, or shoulder or neck in strange ways. It's just a matter of time before the cartilege wears thin or tears, and then the problems become real.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I would say that perhaps a bigger problem is simply the standing kicks that are done very high, particularly those that raise to the side like roundhouse and side kicks. I think the hip really doesn't like to flex that far, to get those kicks up so high. For a front kick, it's not so bad, but those side and roundhouse kicks just destroy the hips when done high.

I can certainly see inherent problems with the jumping and flying kicks as well. Bad landings as well as strange hip stresses and such.

But these problems aren't only found in the realm of TKD. I've seen it in plenty of other arts as well. Not specifically high kicks, but simply bad practice methods. Methods that are almost guaranteed to bring about injury at some point, because they stress the knee or the hip or the ankle, or back, or shoulder or neck in strange ways. It's just a matter of time before the cartilege wears thin or tears, and then the problems become real.

See Contemporary Wushu (but you already know that)

 

[Flying Crane]

See Contemporary Wushu (but you already know that)

Yup!!

 

[Omar B]

Until you run out of money. I kid, I kid.

I've heard that stuff before. I always just say my experience with the art was wholly different. The training was very alive, we sparred, a lot of what people complain about with the art was just not present. But then our coach also taught Goju so though were were learning CKD in the class it was still taught in a very Japanese way.

 

[clfsean]

Well there is one thing I can be thankful to my first sifu more (actually there is more than one thing). I was practicing kicks one day, based on my previous TKD training and he told me to stop before I hurt myself and went on to explain exactly how hurt that I would be.... haven't done that since... you see CMA is safer

Yeah... I didn't learn that until about 8 years post surgery... but it's funny... that's I teach TKD now.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yeah... I didn't learn that until about 8 years post surgery... but it's funny... that's I teach TKD now.

To be honest I am surprised I got through TKD with out a knee issue.

But in CMA I have not had the same stress on my knees and it is by far MUCH safe... just as long as you don't count 2 broken ankles, a few torn ligaments and assorted other injuries that is. Well... ok... the Northern Wu form bothered my knees... but that doesn't count either

I am glad that you were able to recover and get back to MA and teaching TKD now I imagine you alert your students to the potential problems due to painful experience

 

[clfsean]

To be honest I am surprised I got through TKD with out a knee issue.

But in CMA I have not had the same stress on my knees and it is by far MUCH safe... just as long as you don't count 2 broken ankles, a few torn ligaments and assorted other injuries that is. Well... ok... the Northern Wu form bothered my knees... but that doesn't count either

I am glad that you were able to recover and get back to MA and teaching TKD now I imagine you alert your students to the potential problems due to painful experience

Indeed... I do bring a certain perspective to the table & outlook to the technique that's unique to CMA & hitting things.

 

[Miles]

I think your practice of TKD has to change as you get older. My focus 30 yrs ago was sparring, sparring, sparring. As I got older, I started to enjoy poomsae.

Another thing to consider is that we did stuff in the old days which was inherently bad for knees, hips, lower backs: stuff like duck walks, barefoot runs on concrete (snow nothwithstanding), and failure to do weight-training or stretching properly(bounce, bounce, bounce, rip). Over time, I think those practices have been worse for the body than has TKD.

 

[Kacey]

I know more people who don't practice a martial art who have had hip or knees replaced than those who do practice a martial art - most of them runners.

I do know that TKD is the only form of exercise I've ever been able to stick with - and that, surely, means I am better off practicing TKD on a regular basis than not exercising... especially given that most long-term physical activities have their own risks.

 

[Marginal]

Whether or not it's debilitating depends on the kicks. If you get your hips in the right place, there's not really any major movement outside of your natural range of motion.

Really, you have front kicks which shouldn't be doing much of anything to your hip joint. Just an exaggerated stair climbing kind of motion.

Side and back kicks both rely on a similar position if they're done properly. You've just transposed the front kick position.

Turning/roundhouse kicks (done right) also don't work against the hip.

Worst for me are twisting kicks and defensive hooking kicks. Both seem designed to flat out abuse the hip for minimal returns. (Don't really train either much as a result.)

If you're doing kicks that are constantly causing your leg to grind into your hip, not rotating your supporting leg etc, you'll probably suffer damage if you keep it up.

 

[rmclain]

This is exactly why Grandmaster Kim Soo created the Chayon-Ryu teaching method in 1968 and has continuously refined it since. Though I am surprised more people haven't, out of necessity, started investigating better methods of training, as Flying Crane mentions below, they probably did so since they didn't know any other way than to follow what their instructor did.

GM Kim Soo's early days (in Amercia) students (several are still training with him) report than back then the young Master Kim Soo (then 39 years of age), used to have lower back problems so badly that he had to lean against a chair or wall after teaching for more than a few minutes. He also had digestive troubles. This was typical of anyone that trained the old ways according to him (he had trained for 17 years by this point). He says that in Korea it was a joke that if you trained in MA for too long, you would be a human skeleton.

Now, Chayon-Ryu has 41 years of research as a teaching method (preserving the techniques taught by GM Kim Soo's teachers). This is probably why so many adults and students over 40 years of age come to Chayon-Ryu. Less chance of injuring themselves in training. Some of his students have done research as to why this method is safer for the human body in kinesiology and physics depts.

Certainly someone else I haven't heard of has done this as well?

R. McLain

Seems like there are a couple of threads out right now discussing aspects of this topic.

I've seen people mention stretching and strength training to minimize injury (a practice I would agree with), as well as more drastic measures like painkillers (both over-the-counter and prescriptions) cortisone shots, and surgeries to remove/repair/replace damaged body parts.

What strikes me is this, and this is in part a question: my impression is that even after the drastic measures are taken, I am assuming that people are going back to continue with the very methods that brought about their problems in the first place. Is this what people are doing? Are they using these methods to just keep on doing what injured them in the first place?

If the very methodology is what is causing this kind of injury, why don't people step back and take a closer look at what's going on and make some changes?

I'm not talking about a sparring injury or something. I'm talking about the repeated practices and methods of training that are just grinding down and wearing out body parts far more quickly than they ought to. Don't these injuries raise red flags in people's minds, and cause them to question what's happening and how much worse it might get down the road?

 

[dancingalone]

Now, Chayon-Ryu has 41 years of research as a teaching method (preserving the techniques taught by GM Kim Soo's teachers). This is probably why so many adults and students over 40 years of age come to Chayon-Ryu. Less chance of injuring themselves in training. Some of his students have done research as to why this method is safer for the human body in kinesiology and physics depts.

R. McLain

Mr. McClain, does Chayon-ryu teach the various jumping and flying kicks present in many tae kwon do systems? How high do your students typically kick on standard fare like the front, round house, and side kicks?

 

[rmclain]

Mr. McClain, does Chayon-ryu teach the various jumping and flying kicks present in many tae kwon do systems? How high do your students typically kick on standard fare like the front, round house, and side kicks?

For fundamental kicks (white belt level), the front kick and roundhouse are practiced at 2 main levels (abdomen and head) and the front-running kick is practiced mostly at abdomen level. The front-running kick is a jumping kick (similar to the kick used in the end fight in karate kid #1), but at white belt is used mostly for distance instead of height. The side kick is abdomen level, though higher-ranked students sometimes kick head level during sparring and forms.

Flying side kick is a breaking requrement for 6th Gup (Green belt in CYR) students.

R. McLain

 

[dancingalone]

Thanks. Could you perhaps explain a bit on how chayon-ryu mitigates the shocking aspects of twisting one's hips while kick as well as during landing?

It's my belief that tae kwon do or any striking art for that matter can be a healthy long term activity if one restrains oneself to grounded waist level kicks against a target that offers resistance such as a heavy bag. I'd like to reconcile this belief against people who may have other experiences.

 

[Miles]

It's my belief that tae kwon do or any striking art for that matter can be a healthy long term activity if one restrains oneself to grounded waist level kicks against a target that offers resistance such as a heavy bag.

Excellent point! When you are doing full-power techniques to full-extension and there is no resistance, then you are going to have problems. In the old days, we did lots of reps in the air. Today, the only time we don't hit something is when we are doing poomsae.