Is Taekwondo Closed-Minded?

[TSDTexan]

It would take a student with plenty of free-time and motivation, but I think it would be quite possible to train specifically for the test in that time frame and not look totally out of place. As I said before, the test is not all that difficult.

If that story is factual, it probably cost someone a lot of money and/or favors to bypass the time in rank (or it was a long time ago and there was a demand for an instructor somewhere). Personally, I wouldn't tell anyone if I trained someone to be an instructor in six months. I wouldn't want to be the student of an instructor with six months experience.

I find it more likely that the story has been exaggerated.

Ehhhhh, well it came directly from Hwang Hang Lee's mouth during an interview. He was serious, and I doubt it was exaggerated. People do boast of their accomplishments.

I doubt that given his high esteem and acclaim, that he really has to embellish the truth. He often busts fake movie martial arts. He is more than cogent in discerning fake crap from real fighting art. TKD and TSD are something he is passionate about, and probably a perfectionist with.

If He said He did it, He is one of the few people who's word I take for granted, with regard to TKD/TSD.

The Lady now owns and runs a TKD school in Germany. I for one wouldn't mind training under her, just to see if I could learn how she was trained by Hwang Jang Lee, and learn how to be a more efficient instructor, with a suitable student.

 

[TSDTexan]

I think it's entirely possible to train a person with a fair bit of innate ability to pass the physical test in this time period.
I do not think they will have any real understanding, though. It'll just be a series of movements.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

My question is are the series of movements fully burned into muscle memory, and can she teach the motions successfully to another?

To the same level as she has?

IMHO,
The philosophy and mental fundamentals are ongoing and lifelong, and physical fundamentals at a certain point become a process of refining what one truely possesses (mastery) rather than learning and acquiring what is set before them.

 

[Chrisoro]

Over here in Germany there are a lot of older instructors with a Chang Hon TKD background, who received a Kukkiwon Dan at one point (sometimes du to the fact that they didn't like the changes in ITF Taekwondo when the Tul were introduced) but wouldn't adapt to the Kukkiwon style of TKD. They'd just change the forms, but would keep everything else the way they learned it and pass this on to their students. The results are Poomsae like this:

Within their world of TKD everything in that 'Koryo' is done the right way. I'm fine with people practising different styles of TKD, but when it comes to this Koryo Poomsae I'd say that nearly everything in that form is done wrong. Yet I wouldn't say that I'm a closed minded person.

Wow, that was weird!

If I had performed Koryo like that, I would definately have failed my 1st. dan grading.

 

[Dirty Dog]

My question is are the series of movements fully burned into muscle memory, and can she teach the motions successfully to another?

Doubtful, and extremely doubtful, in my opinion.
Teaching the movements is relatively simple. Understanding the principles taught by the movements is an entirely different thing.

 

[Earl Weiss]

What date did the promotion happen?
I am waiting for an email back from SBN Norris to confirm.

I will have to check my ITF newsletters and get back to you. (I expect yopu are referring to the Chuck Norris "Special promotion".

 

[Gnarlie]

Wow, that was weird!

If I had performed Koryo like that, I would definately have failed my 1st. dan grading.

I'd fail green belt for a swung side kick like that. Actually painful to watch.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'd fail green belt for a swung side kick like that. Actually painful to watch.

A full critique of that form would be a time consuming task...
Even the ready stance was incorrect.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[Gnarlie]

A full critique of that form would be a time consuming task...
Even the ready stance was incorrect.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

There is nothing correct there, even my GF (no TKD experience) just watched it, and said it looks like what she would do if she had practiced with me for a week.

 

[Dirty Dog]

There is nothing correct there, even my GF (no TKD experience) just watched it, and said it looks like what she would do if she had practiced with me for a week.

I wouldn't say there was "nothing" correct...
Her foot position in tongmilge joonbi seogi is correct.
But there's certainly lots to work on.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[Gnarlie]

I wouldn't say there was "nothing" correct...
Her foot position in tongmilge joonbi seogi is correct.
But there's certainly lots to work on.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

Ok, some things are correct but they are in the minority.

Most of all, it's the general posture that grates, her shoulders are up around her ears and there is no stability.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ok, some things are correct but they are in the minority.

Most of all, it's the general posture that grates, her shoulders are up around her ears and there is no stability.

It's also a matter of how she's been taught. If she's been taught that dwit seogi is that long, with a 50/50 balance, then it's going to be "wrong" to those who follow the KKW standard.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[Gnarlie]

It's also a matter of how she's been taught. If she's been taught that dwit seogi is that long, with a 50/50 balance, then it's going to be "wrong" to those who follow the KKW standard.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

I can appreciate that people teach things differently, but there's a common thread throughout. e.g. That shoulder up posture is incorrect wherever you come from. As is the general wobbliness, that side kick and the targets for many of the movements.

Turns out the club's Kukkiwon registered and she is a 4th Dan. Disappointing.

 

[TSDTexan]

I will have to check my ITF newsletters and get back to you. (I expect yopu are referring to the Chuck Norris "Special promotion".

Yes indeed

 

[Earl Weiss]

Yes indeed

I will have to check my ITF newsletters and get back to you. (I expect yopu are referring to the Chuck Norris "Special promotion".
Click to expand...
Yes indeed

OOOPS I stand Corrected. It was 8th Dan Promo
ITF Newsletter April 2000
"VIII Dan
April 13 - Chuck Norris, Bob Chaney, Bob Wall - USA ..."

The mind is the second thing to go. - Sorry for the mis info.

 

[Gnarlie]

On topic:

I see two sides to this.

Firstly, it's great to have a highly defined standard for the purposes of teaching the base skill set in order to avoid confusion and to promote uniformity.

Secondly, once the standard is learned and understood, then it is highly beneficial to explore other forms of TKD and other martial arts to see how many ways there are to skin that cat. I find this brings a much deeper understanding of the reasons why the standard is the way it is.

I'd also say there is such a thing as incorrect according to my first point. And although this next thing obviously involves some subjectivity - there are some things I see that just go against all the basic principles of movement as I understand them. As an example of this, I would cite those WMAA clips that sometimes get posted here: careless, rushed, uncontrolled, tense movement at the cost of speed, power and completion.

That's part of what I see as being wrong in the Koryo clip - tension and lack of control, and physically incorrect / incomplete movements in relation to what the form prescribes - the overall impression of the resulting form screams lack of understanding.

I think this particularly applies to the Taeguek and Black Belt Poomsae of KKW TKD. The organisation that created the forms is still in existence and some of the people who contributed to their creation are still alive. The forms and standards for their performance are well documented, so there are few excuses for performing them any other way. Some other examples of what I view as incorrect:

Taeguek Four Sa Chong - YouTube

Taegeuk Pil Chong - YouTube Pil Chong?? Does the Chung Do Kwan have no link to Korea in the US?

Koryo Form Poomse For Taekwondo - Basic Version - YouTube

I would call that a catalogue of errors and misunderstanding. If that makes me closed minded, then I guess OK, I'm closed minded, with regard to what I view as my standard. However, I am open minded with regard to understanding why people train the way they do. Each of these people in the clips has been taught to do things that way.

 

[Jaeimseu]

On topic:

I see two sides to this.

Firstly, it's great to have a highly defined standard for the purposes of teaching the base skill set in order to avoid confusion and to promote uniformity.

Secondly, once the standard is learned and understood, then it is highly beneficial to explore other forms of TKD and other martial arts to see how many ways there are to skin that cat. I find this brings a much deeper understanding of the reasons why the standard is the way it is.

I'd also say there is such a thing as incorrect according to my first point. And although this next thing obviously involves some subjectivity - there are some things I see that just go against all the basic principles of movement as I understand them. As an example of this, I would cite those WMAA clips that sometimes get posted here: careless, rushed, uncontrolled, tense movement at the cost of speed, power and completion.

That's part of what I see as being wrong in the Koryo clip - tension and lack of control, and physically incorrect / incomplete movements in relation to what the form prescribes - the overall impression of the resulting form screams lack of understanding.

I think this particularly applies to the Taeguek and Black Belt Poomsae of KKW TKD. The organisation that created the forms is still in existence and some of the people who contributed to their creation are still alive. The forms and standards for their performance are well documented, so there are few excuses for performing them any other way. Some other examples of what I view as incorrect:

Taeguek Four Sa Chong - YouTube

Taegeuk Pil Chong - YouTube Pil Chong?? Does the Chung Do Kwan have no link to Korea in the US?

Koryo Form Poomse For Taekwondo - Basic Version - YouTube

I would call that a catalogue of errors and misunderstanding. If that makes me closed minded, then I guess OK, I'm closed minded, with regard to what I view as my standard. However, I am open minded with regard to understanding why people train the way they do. Each of these people in the clips has been taught to do things that way.

I liken it to learning a language. The people in the videos have highly accented taekwondo, at best. At worst, they are substituting incorrect stances or techniques or just doing it wrong. The interesting thing is that all of them are likely convinced that their way IS the standard.

 

[Chrisoro]

Yeah. I wonder what would happen if someone who follows the Kukkiwon standard correctly, came to one of the clubs featured in the videos above, and performed the same forms. Would they be "corrected"? How would the people in the club then respond, if he then showed them videos of how the masters from Kukkiwon themselves do the forms? Would they still be in denial? Would they deny that they were afflicted with KKW? Or would they in some way claim that the KKW masters were doing the form wrong?

 

[Earl Weiss]

.... The interesting thing is that all of them are likely convinced that their way IS the standard.

That is what so sad. Not limited to KKW System or even to TKD. People who never get out of their own little world or MA Universe to compare what they are doing. In some cases listening to instructors who tell them that experiencing or even watching other stuff is disloyal.

 

[Gnarlie]

I liken it to learning a language. The people in the videos have highly accented taekwondo, at best. At worst, they are substituting incorrect stances or techniques or just doing it wrong. The interesting thing is that all of them are likely convinced that their way IS the standard.

I agree with that analogy. When learning a foreign language, there is a level below which intelligibility is lost, where native speakers of the language cannot decipher what is being said. I'd put some of these in that category. You can recognise which form it is supposed to be, but there is such a strong accent and so many errors that even if you know the form, it is difficult to recognise the individual movements in some cases.

The thing that is missing in all cases is spirit - I can live with a few dodgy motions or mistakes if the overall spirit is good, but each of these, especially the women, look like they are just going through the motions. One of them is looking at the ground the whole time. It saddens me that these people are all black belt instructors. Where is the finesse?

 

[Gnarlie]

Short answer:

Is Taekwondo closed minded? No

Are people closed minded? Generally yes.