Realistic Training !!

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Ronnin, Jan 14, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Seattletcj

    Seattletcj Green Belt

    Joined:
    May 3, 2005
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Seattle
    Randori, from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randori)
    It is not black and white.

    Randori (乱取り) is a term used in Japanese martial arts to describe free-style practice or sparring, sometimes with multiple attackers. The term literally means "chaos taking" or "grasping freedom," implying a freedom from the structured practice of kata.
    The exact meaning of randori depends on the martial art it is used in. In judo and Shodokan Aikido, it most often refers to one-on-one sparring where partners attempt to resist and counter each other's techniques. In other styles of aikido, in particular Aikikai, it refers to a form of practice in which a designated aikidoka defends against multiple attackers in quick succession without knowing how they will attack or in what order. This form of randori is not sparring, and the attackers are not allowed to resist or attempt to counter the defender's techniques. It must be noted that the term is used only by Aikikai dojos outside Japan. In Japan, this form of practice is called Taninzu-gake(多人数掛け) which literally means multiple attackers.
    Although in karate usually the word kumite is used for sparring, in some schools they also use the term randori for the "mock-combat" in which both karatekas move very fast, attempting and parrying acts of extreme violence with all four limbs (including knees, elbows, etc.) and yet never making other than the lightest contact. Total control of the body is necessary and therefore usually only the senior grades can practice randori. In these schools, the distinction between randori and kumite is that in randori the action is not interrupted when a successful technique is applied.
    Randori may be contrasted with kata, as two potentially complementary types of training.
     
  2. DWeidman

    DWeidman Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2004
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Really? Seriously -- when both the defition for Sparring uses the word Randori to explain what it is... and when Randori uses the word "sparring" to explain what it is... the definitions *seem to imply* a rather grey area here. I am sure you would LIKE to see them as entirely different animals. Just as I would like you to see them as the same animal. However -- the only point worth recognizing here is that neither of us holds a black and white answer to the question. Feel free to hold your breath and stomp around all you like... it isn't clear. Period.

    Here is the Wikipedia definition for you:

    Enjoy.

    -Daniel
     
  3. saru1968

    saru1968 Green Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    uk

    I won't bother with replying to the rest as its be hashed out so much I've lost interest..but i will say its not so much the physical aspects that seperate Randori and sparring but the mindset..sorry can't explain it any better.

    Seperate classes are seperate classes but if the student decided to bring a conflicting training methodlogy into a BBT lesson, then they would stop.
    If they want to learn BJJ then they can go to a BJJ class, Judo go to a Judo class. But at BBT class we do BBT. :)

    Its pretty straightforward, if i'm teaching then the students are there to learn and learn the way i am taught if not the door is always open.
     
  4. Rubber Tanto

    Rubber Tanto Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Melbourne Victoria Australia
    Don't bother. Saying the the difference between what you label sparring and what you label randori is what each person is thinking when they a training with it leaves it impossible to have a coherant debate with you on the subject matter. We'll just agree to disagree and it would be best for all.

    Isn't that what I stated was the situation in the hypothetical? Way to go answering with the original question. Hence why I asked for a yes or no answer.

    So straighfoward in fact, that you didn't give a straightforward answer. But I'm guessing it was in fact "Yes"
    ;)
     
  5. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    MAP Hell


    http://www.winjutsu.com/source/hatsumi.html#kihon




    For what it's worth, I believe that is at least partially true. A lot of people simply do find kata to be boring and uninteresting, at least in comparison.



    Look. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is not my art or your art or any one of our respective teachers's art. It is the art of Masaaki Hatsumi. If you want to practice Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, it's the knowledge he's shared that's relevant in the pursuit of knowledge of his art. The bulk of that knowledge can be found in Japan.
     
  6. Rubber Tanto

    Rubber Tanto Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Melbourne Victoria Australia
    And no one is disputing that knowledge. And no one is disputing that the source of it stems from japan. I have a problem with this frame of mind and am quite aware that Hatsumi-Sensei owns this art.

    But then again, I am also aware that Hatsuim says this art is an evolving art. and that each person make his taijutsu his own. I am also aware that people that have gone to him and spoken of adding elements to their training have been told that each makes their taijutsu their own. So this is probably why I find your above quoted argument lacking of substance.

    Oh well. As I have said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
    I can live with that. As my sensei said when I discussed all this with him. I will find two kinds of people in the BJK. Those that train with randori and those that don't. People on each side will always think their way to be the more logical training method. It is the natural order of things.
    People could post in this thread until it reaches page 1,000,000 and still each will believe what they want. Nothing will change.

    So thanks for the debate anyway, guys.
    I have learned a little more about all of you because of it.
    Cheers,
    Nick
     
  7. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    MAP Hell
  8. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,522
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Japan
    Could you tone down the heat? We can discuss this like adults, can't we?

    And according to what I have experienced, Randori is a Japanese word that means that there is no set ending of the actions like in kata. Sparring is an English word and for years I went to tournaments where the sparring division was always two guys of about the same ability trying to win over the other.

    So sparring is randori, but not all randori is sparring.

    And it is the competive aspect of trying to win over someone else that some of us do not like. A lot of people have chimed in about how we really can't challenge ourselves unless we go against someone who is there with the intent to defeat us and uses any means to do so. That is sports sparring as I have experienced it. I do not like it and I have not seen the Japanese do anything like that at any level of training in my many years in Japan.

    But having one guy, or multiple guys, with weapons or maybe having weapons is another matter. I find it amazing that the title of this thread is 'realistic training' and started out by complaining about the punches we use in the Bujinkan. But of course, from there is got into a discussion of why we should look to the UFC and such for what to train like and against.

    I myself would not call having one guy try to attack another with a rubber knife a form of sparring. I sparred for many years in another art and they never had something like that in that part of training. I find the whole idea that two guys are there to fight a foriegn one to me. If I get into a violent situation, it will not be because I was getting ready for a fight. So any type of training that starts out with the assumption that I am there to defeat the other guy by using violence is not realistic from the start. I may be attacked and I train with that in mind. But I try to avoid violence right up to the point where the other guy throws the first blow and that is not what you see happening in sparring like the UFC- but you do see it with Peyton Quinn and randorit practice in the Bujinkan Japan sometimes.
     
  9. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,522
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Japan
    Have you ever heard the term Shu Ha Ri? Do a google search if you have not. And then realize that the end goal is indeed to make the art your own (ri) and not just copy your teacher. But to get there you have to go through Shu and Ha. And when you teach others you teach them the Shu portion if you are using your teacher's name or that of his art.
     
  10. Rubber Tanto

    Rubber Tanto Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Melbourne Victoria Australia
    No I haven't heard of the term. I'll look into it.
    Thanks
     
  11. Rubber Tanto

    Rubber Tanto Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Melbourne Victoria Australia
  12. saru1968

    saru1968 Green Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    uk
    Thanks for the conversation everyone but after recieving neg rep
    'Pure ignorance...I can't believe it!'

    For my opinion on the different 'mindsets' on sparring & Randori.

    Not really worth continuing.

    cheers

    Gaz.
     
  13. Seattletcj

    Seattletcj Green Belt

    Joined:
    May 3, 2005
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Seattle
    LOL, like in the "soke Hatsumi clips" thread ?

    Something about competition that seems to be the issue. hmmmm.
    I recently heard that some parents here in the U.S are trying to make it so that there are no more scores in childrens sports. You know, everyone is a winner. Even the losers get trophies etc.

    Almost sounds like real life too. Uh oh.

    ...strawman.
     
  14. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    May 27, 2004
    Messages:
    27,172
    Likes Received:
    460
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Not BC, Not DC
    Admin Note:

    Thread locked pending Admin review.

    G Ketchmark / shesulsa
    MT Assistant Administrator
    123
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

cleveland mogana park gang

,

putting realism into bujinkan training

,

usmc mcmap uke