Realistic Training !!

[Seattletcj]

Well, as has been pointed out again and again, a lot of people say they are going to build up strenght but not rely on it. But everyone I know who has built up strength seems to rely on it without conciously being aware of it.

Everyone you know who has built up strength. ok.
I'd say this is really a Faulty generalization (or hasty generalization, or biased sample etc.).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization

Seriously, all of these strawmen are not based on anything anyone has said in this conversation (by definition). And the justification for creating the strawmen is pure anecdotal evidence.

IMO this explains why many of these conversations never get anywhere .

 

[Seattletcj]

You don't care about properly learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. As such bad habits are nothing you feel the need to concern yourself with.

Am I in the twilight zone? :erg: Your statement sounds like the Jedi mind control technique.

I think you are joking, but am not really sure.
LOL, did I say this somewhere?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Found this:

I do not want to do what the seniors in Japan do. What they do is teach advanced concepts. That is not my goal .
They are very good at what they do. That is why I said , it is important to define exactly what they do. If your goal is to look like them, then yes mimic everything they do.

 

[Don Roley]

Everyone you know who has built up strength. ok.
I'd say this is really a Faulty generalization (or hasty generalization, or biased sample etc.).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization

Seriously, all of these strawmen are not based on anything anyone has said in this conversation (by definition). And the justification for creating the strawmen is pure anecdotal evidence.

IMO this explains why many of these conversations never get anywhere .

Well, I think that when we are talking about what we want to reach as our taijutsu goals, we are talking about a very few people that live in Jaapn and have funny names. And I mainly talk about them when discussing things.

And as for the idea of a hasty generalization, I can only speak about my experience over the last couple of decades in the art in two continents and a few countries. So far, I see nothing to disuade me from maintaining my position. Some of the folks that have tried certain things, and have been in this art longer than we have been alive, do not do them and advise against them. I tend to be rather conservative in my opinions about my abilities and do not think that if they were not able to do something that me and my superior abilities (snicker, snort:lfao: ) can do any better.

 

[Seattletcj]

Read it very carefully.

Originally Posted by Seattletcj
I do not want to do what the seniors in Japan do. What they do is teach advanced concepts. That is not my goal .
They are very good at what they do. That is why I said , it is important to define exactly what they do. If your goal is to look like them, then yes mimic everything they do.

 

[Don Roley]

I'm not sure what you mean by habit 2.

Aside from the link Nimravous gave, I would ask you to look at your experiences. IIRC, you were a doorman at a club. Were you there to fight with the other guy? Or were you there to try to keep the peace? Did you square off with the other guy and then start a series of exchanging blows? Or was it more often the other guy trying to get in a shot when he thought he could catch you off guard and threw everything into one sucker punch?

And have you looked at the way Hatsumi does things? He does not do things give and take. Well... maybe you can say that if you define it as the other guys gives him an attack and he takes everything away from the attacker. There is no second shot with Hatsumi unless he has purposefully left an opening. It is rather like going up against a pool shark. As soon as it is his turn, you never get another one of your own. But to do that, you need to lure and arrange yourself so that the other guy commits to a full on attack- which describes someone trying to sucker punch you but not what you see often in the ring.

Am I making sense here?

 

[Don Roley]

Read it very carefully.

What they do is teach advanced concepts. That is not my goal .

I think that the original quote was in relation to a discussion about advice that the Japanese shihan were giving that was being rejected. The Japanese shihan do not always do advanced concepts. Hatsumi IMO does because there are things only he can teach. But the Japanese shihan are sometimes willing to let you know what you should be doing at an early stage in your training.

But of course, some people reject what they say. Some folks do only what Hatsumi is doing now- ignoring the process that got him to that level and others do what they want and ignore the fact that the Japanese shihan do not do it, and in some cases actively discourage others from following the mistakes they have done in the past.

I do not know how many times I have said it, but I believe that we need to look at what the Japanese have done and what they reccomend we do if we want to end up where they are. That does not mean do as they perform now, but it does mean asking them what they think we should do and at least asking them why they do not do certain things during training with us.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Read it very carefully.

Yup. Instructor quote of the day: "You don't need advanced concepts if you want to learn how to fight, those you need to learn if you want to learn Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu."

 

[Rubber Tanto]

Everybody falls victim to number three initially. But it's easier to notice and reflect on if you're not going too fast, which can also be said about number four. Number five and six only occurs in badly done kata training.

People don't do kata badly when they first start?
lol

Wrong. Let's say you spend the three free training sessions teaching a beginner torite kihon goho (kihon happo four to eight for those who want to know), taught as both releases to grabs and as responses to punches. If that guy gets to try randori at the time of his fourth session and realizes just how hard it is to "catch" other people's arms and "put on" techniques, there is a much higher chance of him becoming disillusioned and a) quitting, b) becoming one of those people who counter out of sync with his partner, i.e. moves at 110 percent speed while his partner moves at 70 percent, or c) letting his bias get in the way of his understanding, in that he's not interested in learning all the myriads of details that you need to understand in order for your skills to be put to work. I've seen this happen frequently, scenario b being the most usual.

But I don't know anyone that would throw a kid into randori after three sessions. Maybe after 30 sessions. Maybe. Never three.

So when do you think people are ready to try some randori?

Like I said before, I believe children have the right to be children for as long as they can, which is why the way people are brought out of their "invincibility" phase is so delicate.

Hmm...it's better in my opinion to not allow an "invincibility" phase to build in the first place. As my dad says, you cant fall far when both feet are planted on the ground.

You have 8 years in the BJK, if I recall. My sensei has 18 years...I've never heard talk down to students. I'm not comfortable with this "children" line you keep using. It seems to be part of that ever growing mentality of one person of higher rank looking down at those of lower rank, thinking that the colour of their belt dictates the level of constructive input and insight on offer.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fight_selfdefense.html

Oh okay...okay so when you say "give and take mentallity" you are talking about the difference between picking a fight and defending yourself. Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up because I didn't understand what you meant by give and take...I thought you meant "not sharing info" when sparring.

Thanks
~Nick

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have trained for quite a while in the Bujinkan and while I am not a Budo Taijutsu only type of practitioner I can certainly see the benefits of training exactly the way Soke is teaching in Japan. I have met some Budo Taijutsu adepts that simply are down right scary. Most of these gentleman either lived in Japan or have taken multiple trips. They all seem to have worked very hard to eliminated the weaker points in their movement. Thus making their defense very, very good. In regards to realistic training we have to understand that any training is just a simulation of a real life encounter. Whether kata training, training a certain waza or sparring, rolling, etc. The important point that we probably can all agree on is that it is important to train and to continue to train and not fall off the wheel.

What about your personal training in Budo Taijutsu do you find realistic and beneficial to your own personal protection skills? The art itself is great so what are you doing to bring out your skills?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

People don't do kata badly when they first start?
lol

Tell a newbie not to bend his back or bend his knees over his toes, and I guarantee you that for what it's worth, he's going to remember your admonitions better in kata training than in randori.

But I don't know anyone that would throw a kid into randori after three sessions. Maybe after 30 sessions. Maybe. Never three.

I do. But I'll admit that the time limit is a bit beside the point, depending on the person.

So when do you think people are ready to try some randori?

Depends. Sorry, poor answer, I know. But it's a good sign when they can bend their knees, move their feet and their arms aren't shaking too much anymore.

Hmm...it's better in my opinion to not allow an "invincibility" phase to build in the first place.

In a perfect world, yes, but then you'd also have to train techniques full speed right from the beginning.

You have 8 years in the BJK, if I recall. My sensei has 18 years...I've never heard talk down to students.

I believe I wrote that last year, so that makes it nine.
How many people have you had as a teacher on a regular basis?

I'm not comfortable with this "children" line you keep using. It seems to be part of that ever growing mentality of one person of higher rank looking down at those of lower rank, thinking that the colour of their belt dictates the level of constructive input and insight on offer.

I look down upon lots of people of lower, higher and equal rank. It's got more to do with their personalities and their capabilities (or rather lack thereof) than their rank.

Oh okay...okay so when you say "give and take mentallity" you are talking about the difference between picking a fight and defending yourself. Gotcha.

Not only that. It also concerns the strategy you use within an altercation.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

In the recent Bujin-Kan online newsletter Ed Martin has a good article about Hard and Soft and how it pertains to realistic training.
http://www.bujinmag.com/index2.htm
This is a good online newsletter that I feel helps to give you some better understandings of Budo Taijutsu.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

I believe I wrote that last year, so that makes it nine.
How many people have you had as a teacher on a regular basis?

wow...never really thought about that. Let's see, in 25 years, about 6 teachers. Then maybe a dozen people of impressive experience that I have met along the way who have spent some time with me to help me fine tune certain things or have just taught me some really valuable lessons.

I look down upon lots of people of lower, higher and equal rank. It's got more to do with their personalities and their capabilities (or rather lack thereof) than their rank.

Okay...

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

wow...never really thought about that. Let's see, in 25 years, about 6 teachers.

I meant in the Bujinkan.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

I meant in the Bujinkan.

Aah. Thanks for clearing that up.
2

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Twelve altogether for me personally. I won't deny that I'm extremely spoiled, I've always had at least two different instructors at any given time. Currently I have four, with one acting as a stand-in.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

Twelve altogether for me personally. I won't deny that I'm extremely spoiled, I've always had at least two different instructors at any given time. Currently I have four, with one acting as a stand-in.

wow! Cool!
And you are telling me this because....?

 

[Bujingodai]

This is a pretty friggin stupid discussion. A good pissing match for sure.
Funny how people make fun of so many yet look silly themselves.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

wow! Cool!
And you are telling me this because....?

The fact that I'm spoiled might be one of the reasons you've found me coming across as condescending.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

This is a pretty friggin stupid discussion. A good pissing match for sure.
Funny how people make fun of so many yet look silly themselves.

Man I'm lost...I don't even know where this line of questioning is leading...