Questions regarding MA-80

[Datu Tim Hartman]

What does the 80 stand for?

MA - Modern Arnis.
80 - The year he started his arnis training.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Is this a private thread or can anybody jump in? What is this debate "really" about?

Hi Tom,
Sure, jump in. It began in a different thread having to do with one organization recognizing ranks from a different organization. Then I made a post and the moderators separated it as a different thread. Read from there. Fundamentally it is about a difference in opinion between Tim Hartman and myself regarding my personal direction in Modern Arnis.

What I see is an angry man who feels cheated out of what he believes is his rightful place in the legacy of Modern Arnis. This would also explain why you jumped to an 8th degree in your MA-80. It puts you ahead of all those named in the quote above. When you were with the WMAA we tried to work with you, however your path seemed pre-determined and what we had to offer wasn't good enough. I feel bad that you decided to go it alone.You could have had a very good working relationship with us. We were on your side.

Sal,
You so miss the point. I feel cheated out of nothing nor am I angry. I stepped out of what became the seniority issue that flared up upon RP's death. The ranking in my own MA-80 is my own affair. It only puts me ahead of all the others in MA-80. I have stated and will continue to state that our ranks under Prof. Presas were frozen upon his death. Tim was promoted by the board of directors of the WMAA and not by himself. This is him recognizing the same fact, which is fine by me. His rank in WMAA and mine in MA-80 only supercede each other's in those respective clans. As to what WMAA had to offer me, there is more behind the scenes that I won't go into. Personally I like everyone I met in WMAA. You guys are a good crew and I liked training with you all. I appreciate that you were on my side.

Mr. Anderson,
I vaguely remember a comment you made a while ago. Please forgive me if I misquote you here, it has been a while. You said, I believe, that one of the last things Prof. Presas said to you prior to his passing was "Get involved". Why would he have said that if you were active and involved?

I recall someone else stating that he (Prof. Presas) thought you had retired.

If you weren't involved, and you weren't active, and you hadn't been around, what gives you the the idea that you should somehow be ahead of those who were? You may have started sooner than many, but how many hours have you logged compared to them? 50 hours in 5 years is not the same as 1,000 hours in a year. I'd say the later outranks the former.

But, what do I know? Other than ranks should mean something, and be an indication of ability. Not favortism, ego, or age. Build an organization, train a generation, and let your achievements speak for themselves. Never mind the BS wall-candy, and ego-stoking "promotions".

True masters need not rank, nor titles, nor paper.
They let their skill, and that of their students speak for them.


For the record, I'm not involved in any FMA, other than I'll do a little stick sparring when the opportunity is there.

Hi Bester. Yes, RP thought I had retired and was no longer involved. I hadn't gone to several camps but he was mistaken. The time and training was continuing to be logged. I fully agree with your last statement.

What does the 80 stand for?

Chris,
The 80 has two meanings. 1) 1980 is the year I began training. 2) If you turn the 8 on its side you have the symbol for infinity. I remember how Prof. Presas would show us endless variations based off of one move. That gives the idea of an infinite number of actions one can do. I also remember how direct he could be if you put the heat on him? The 80 means "the possibility of anything (8) to the simplicity of the moment (0)." The 8------0 is sort of a philosophical thing.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hi All,

To Dan this is not meant for you, as you represent the art of Modern Arnis and your own art of Modern Arnis 80 in an exceptional way. To anyone else who seems to have a problem with Dan Anderson and Modern Arnis 80, I for one would look in the mirror myself and realize that it just isn't worth my time or effort. Dan is happy doing what he does, we should all be happy for him. In the last several years no one and I mean no one has done more for the art of Modern Arnis than Dan, his books are simply exceptional! Everyone who talked or spent time with Remy knows that he always told anyone who was with him that they were his best student, etc, etc. That is why there are so many differnt titles from Senior Master to Master's of Tapi Tapi, to Datu's etc. I have seen no evidence that anyone is better than the other and I am not knocking anyone that I have witnessed first hand! However, all this bickering at times reminds me of middle or at best high school infighting. Let the past be the past and do your best to live up to what the Professor wanted you to do!!!

just my two cents,
Brian R. VanCise

 

[chris...]

I feel some heat in this thread however I'll add in my own comments
From my limited experience in martial arts, one year training in kombatan, and talking with other frinds that train other styles I have come to this conclusionm. I associate FMA with a programing philosophy called open source where programmers can use the code someone else wrote and improve on it, as opposed to closed source where you are giving a program and cannot change it. This is why I chose to study FMA, therefore I say good on you for making your own style, even if its almost the same as the original, it's your version with chages you personally think are better. Others will find it better or worse then the original, we're not all the same, we all prefer different methods and styles.

 

[James Miller]

Hi All,

In the last several years no one and I mean no one has done more for the art of Modern Arnis than Dan

Brian-

Could you please explain? :asian:

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

James,

It is pretty simple really! Many Modern Arnis people are doing great things for their art and the martial arts community. Some people are doing videos, seminars, teaching etc. Dan is one of the only people to take up the mantel and really tackle the often difficult and painstaking task of publishing books. As someone who has done video work and wrote a book, let me tell you that there is no comparison in the amount of hard work between the two! I am not demeaning anyone for their accomplishments all who work hard to teach, provide videos, DVD's, books etc, are good in my book. However, Dan has really filled a need and took it upon himself to fill a gap that was out there and in my opinion he has done more than anyone else out there because of it! Just my opinion, feel free to disagree!!!

Brian R. VanCise

 

[Tgace]

What "damage" or offense is Dan being accused of here anyway? Whats "wrong" with MA-80??

 

[DragonMind]

Here's my take on the whole situation; observing from the cheap seats.

Remy Presas learns his family style of FMA. He then goes on to learn other FMA systems and eventually creates his own interpretation that he names "Modern Arnis". New art? Not really, more a new way of teaching and organizing what he knew. Was it static? No, he added things he learned from Wally Jay and others along the way. Is this unique? No, it seems that a lot of other folks in the PI that are his peers and contemporaries did the same thing. Heck, just about every martial art style in the world has gone through something similar. Why call it "Modern Arnis" instead of just "Arnis"? To identify it as his particular spin on arnis.

Now Remy Presas goes out and teaches a LOT of people about his Modern Arnis. Who gave him his rank? His father? His grandfather? His peers? Does anyone really care?

Fast forward 20+ years. There are a bunch of people out there practicing and teaching "Modern Arnis" with Remy Presas' blessing. He's given ranks and titles to people because they care about those things. Some folks have diverged from Remy Presas' way to follow their own path. Some have returned to the roots before "Modern Arnis" to see where Remy Presas has been. But "Modern Arnis" is still Remy Presas' vision and held together by his personality.

Remy Presas passes away. What is to become of "Modern Arnis"? Simple answer is the cycle begins again. Those who learned Remy Presas' "Modern Arnis" can choose to continue with what he created and nothing more, or they can create their own interpretation (much as he did with his family style), or they can move on to something entirely new.

My first real exposure to Modern Arnis was from Bruce Chiu and Jerry Ingle back in 2000. They teach what they learned from Remy Presas. I don't see Bruce any more so I can't say what road he has taken. Jerry Ingle continues to go back to the tapes, books and seminar notes from Remy Presas and adds to what he knows by working with Ray Dionaldo. I started looking around for someone to continue studying the legacy that Remy Presas left behind in greater depth. I found Dan's books and corresponded with him to see what my options were. In April I had the chance to spend four solid days training one-on-one with Dan. Every subject that we covered, Dan was always careful to explain what came directly from Remy Presas and what was his spin. This is exactly what Dan does in all his books. His MA-80 is designed in the same vein as what Remy Presas himself did. He took what he learned and added his own pieces and named it in such a way that folks could tell what its origin was and that it is his personal spin.

What I also found interesting is that at many points during our four days, Dan would pull out tapes of Tim Hartman, Dieter Knuttel, Jeff Delaney or Kelly Worden to emphasize a particular point or show another way of doing something to help me understand what he was trying to get across. He didn't bad-mouth them or denigrate them. What came out time and again was that MA-80 is his design for a curriculum to teach what he learned from Remy Presas plus what he adds from his own experience and training. It is supposed to be a living system, just as Modern Arnis was while Remy Presas was alive. And, just as Remy Presas was in charge of Modern Arnis, Dan is in charge of MA-80. In that, I see little difference between what he has done and any of the other folks, except that he has not established any organizations. Frankly, I prefer it that way. Martial arts styles are not democracies and function poorly when forced to act like one. I give you the World Taekwondo Federation as a shining example of how to ruin an art by letting an organization run things. Maybe the Modern Arnis organizations can avoid the same fate as TKD, Hapkido, Kenpo and a dozen others that have tried. I wish them luck, but the kind of sniping I've seen just in this forum bodes ill for success.

As for rank, why is there such a huff that so-and-so is a 7 and somebody else is an 8 or a 6 or a 42? What rank was Remy Presas? What criteria did he meet to be classified as an X? Or is this all just a bunch of ego-puffing? Tim Hartman did what he did for his own reasons. Dan did what he did for his own reasons. Who has any right to tell them they are wrong? Since the answer is no one, GET OVER IT FOLKS! You look like a bunch of preening peacocks from out here in the bleachers. Salvage what you can of your dignity and get back on track. Now that Remy Presas is gone, we're looking to you folks to show us a way of honoring what he created and moving on into the future. For me, that is MA-80.

 

[James Miller]

Well let me start by introducing myself. My name is James Miller and I have been associated with Datu Hartman for quite some time. Obviously my opinion will be slightly biased towards Mr. Hartman. OK, here we go!

Brian-
I would agree with you on how hard it is doing videos and books. I’ve recently helped Hartman shoot a video for NAPMA for their monthly (August) packet. A simple 20 minute spot took over 90 minutes. Where I have to disagree with you is your comment on Anderson filling a NEED for Modern Arnis books. Prof. Presas not only has 3 books, but also has released 25 videos. There are plenty of these types of reference material. What is important is that the will is settled so this material can be readily available to the masses.

Another point that I disagree with you is the seminars and camps not being as important. The above media can be used to supplement training, but not meant to substitute proper instruction. I feel that groups like IMAF, MARPIO, NSI, WMAA, etc. have been doing the bulk of the work on continuing as well as spreading Presas’ system. No disrespect to Mr. Anderson, but the majority of the seminars that he has taught since Presas’ passing has been on his American Freestyle Karate.

Barry-
You wrote this:

Now that Remy Presas is gone, we're looking to you folks to show us a way of honoring what he created and moving on into the future.

I think the real problem is that many of us got to know Remy personally so we have a personal attachment to his legacy. In Parkers Kenpo there are many different organizations all teaching the same system. Each organization has their own twist on the same program, yet they all give credit to the founder Ed Parker Sr. by calling either Parker’s Kenpo or American Kenpo Karate. They do not name it PK-85 or AKK-Y2K. I think some people may perceive Anderson’s actions as disrespectful.


Chris…
I think the problem is perception of terms. There are Martial Systems and there are styles of expression. In the above statement I make reference to different Kenpo organizations doing the same art with their own flair. If it’s the same system is there a need to rename it? By renaming it does it truly give credit to the original founder? In the case of MA-80, if it’s only 5 – 10% different does it really merit a name change? This is not an attack, just asking.

Mr. Anderson
I think the promotion to 8th degree is the biggest problem here, but not for the reason you might think. Since you are the “Founder” of MA-80 why stop at 8th? If you are the head and founder of your “style” you should be 9th or 10th. I can see why you wouldn’t want to promote yourself to 10th degree. In a conversation with Hartman, he told me that he wouldn’t take one past 9th degree, leaving the 10th open out of respect for Remy. By taking the 8th that puts you one degree over several of the Datus. If you were a 7th already that would be acceptable, but this was not the case. You were a 6th and skipped to 8th putting you ONE above everyone else. If you were to step back a little and look at this from a different angle, you might see how people may perceive this differently than you.

The above are some observations from MY point of view. They are not meant as attacks and I want to apologize in advance if I offended anyone with this post. I will be offline for the rest of this week and part of the following one due to the WMAA Camp this weekend.

:asian:

 

[Tgace]

How does an 8th in his own style put him "over" anybody in another style?

 

[James Miller]

Becuase most people feel that Mr Anderson is teaching Modern Arnis. As people have commented earlier if it's only 5 - 10% different is it truly a different system?

Have a nice weekend! Time to rest before I get to be a pinyada sp. this weekend.

:asian: :whip: :whip: :asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I think it's the numbers that folks focus on...the idea that all levels are equal. That a 6th in the IMAF (Presas) = 6th in the IMAF (Delany) = 6th (WMAA) = 6th (MARPPIO) , etc...
Numbers are the same, but the skill level, material known, etc are different.

Take any 2 schools in the same Kenpo organization for example. Same curiculum, same ranks, but both schools have some variations in what they teach. School 1 does a little more weapon work, school 2, more grappling. Suddenly, they are 5-10% apart. Does this qualify them as founders of seperate arts/styles/systems?

Folks see what Dan has done to be on the same level as that, but with high rank/titles that are seen as him putting himself ahead of them. Dan says this isn't the case, that his MA80 rank and his MA rank are seperate ranks. If thats true, then, why the fuss?

 

[Tgace]

So if Dan would have started a separate organization but not a separate "style" this would be a non-issue?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Maybe. Maybe not. It's all semantics to me. :shrug:

 

[Tgace]

Which leads me to wonder, when we look at different schools of Karate, Ryu of Swordsmanship etc. what precentage of difference is there (or should there be) to be considered a legitimate "style". I believe that Politics, differences in philosophy and economics drove a lot of that in the past....

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hi Everyone,

I really feel this is an issue that should be best taken up between the two parties! Clearly there are issues between the WMAA and Dan Anderson, you guys need to quit snipping at each other and let your old issues die. When I entered this thread I thought It was pretty apparent reading between the lines that you guys need to grow up and stop wasting time on silly threads like this! Certainly, my opinion that Dan has done a lot for Modern Arnis because of his publishing efforts has bothered some! If you look at what I wrote, I did not demean anyone for doing seminar, videos, DVD's etc. Those are great mediums to do work in. However I noted that publishing a book is more difficult, which is TRUE! Books, Videos, DVD's etc are all really good avenues but never, ever, ever should be used to replace qualified instruction! Finally as someone who trains Modern Arnis, Arnis, Eskrima, etc. who also has no ties to any organization but his own, I would say I am done with this thread! I have no dislike, animosity, etc, etc, to anyone here, IT IS JUST NOT WORTH MY TIME!!! See ya around and keep training hard!

Brian R. VanCise

 

[Dan Anderson]

Well let me start by introducing myself. My name is James Miller and I have been associated with Datu Hartman for quite some time. Obviously my opinion will be slightly biased towards Mr. Hartman. OK, here we go!

Brian-
I would agree with you on how hard it is doing videos and books. I’ve recently helped Hartman shoot a video for NAPMA for their monthly (August) packet. A simple 20 minute spot took over 90 minutes. Where I have to disagree with you is your comment on Anderson filling a NEED for Modern Arnis books. Prof. Presas not only has 3 books, but also has released 25 videos. There are plenty of these types of reference material. What is important is that the will is settled so this material can be readily available to the masses.

Another point that I disagree with you is the seminars and camps not being as important. The above media can be used to supplement training, but not meant to substitute proper instruction. I feel that groups like IMAF, MARPIO, NSI, WMAA, etc. have been doing the bulk of the work on continuing as well as spreading Presas’ system. No disrespect to Mr. Anderson, but the majority of the seminars that he has taught since Presas’ passing has been on his American Freestyle Karate.

Barry-
You wrote this:
I think the real problem is that many of us got to know Remy personally so we have a personal attachment to his legacy. In Parkers Kenpo there are many different organizations all teaching the same system. Each organization has their own twist on the same program, yet they all give credit to the founder Ed Parker Sr. by calling either Parker’s Kenpo or American Kenpo Karate. They do not name it PK-85 or AKK-Y2K. I think some people may perceive Anderson’s actions as disrespectful.


Chris…
I think the problem is perception of terms. There are Martial Systems and there are styles of expression. In the above statement I make reference to different Kenpo organizations doing the same art with their own flair. If it’s the same system is there a need to rename it? By renaming it does it truly give credit to the original founder? In the case of MA-80, if it’s only 5 – 10% different does it really merit a name change? This is not an attack, just asking.

Mr. Anderson
I think the promotion to 8th degree is the biggest problem here, but not for the reason you might think. Since you are the “Founder” of MA-80 why stop at 8th? If you are the head and founder of your “style” you should be 9th or 10th. I can see why you wouldn’t want to promote yourself to 10th degree. In a conversation with Hartman, he told me that he wouldn’t take one past 9th degree, leaving the 10th open out of respect for Remy. By taking the 8th that puts you one degree over several of the Datus. If you were a 7th already that would be acceptable, but this was not the case. You were a 6th and skipped to 8th putting you ONE above everyone else. If you were to step back a little and look at this from a different angle, you might see how people may perceive this differently than you.

The above are some observations from MY point of view. They are not meant as attacks and I want to apologize in advance if I offended anyone with this post. I will be offline for the rest of this week and part of the following one due to the WMAA Camp this weekend.

:asian:

Hi James,

Your polite queries deserve polite answers. RP released a number of videos, however, many of them are not in general production at this time. The Black Belt magazine videos are the easiest available video works. His book through Ohara Publications is the easiest book. The MARPPIO website had his two other books. Many people don't have know where to get his first 7 videos and his latest batch, I believe, are found only on Jeff Delaney's IMAF site. His materials are not as easy to find since his death.

The majority of my seminars have been karate but I have been teaching Modern Arnis seminars as well.

Some people may perceive my actions as disrespectful but to be perfectly honest, there have been only TWO people who have come right out and said so: Kelly Worden and Tim Hartman. I have been in communication with ALL the Datus and ALL the MoTTs and with Senior Master Roland Dantes in the PI and no one has stated any kind of problem with what I am doing. The rank and file basically don't care.

Does it merit a name change? In my opinion, yes. The technical base is 90-95% Remy Presas Modern Arnis. The technical emphasis points, the philosophy behind why and how I teach and what I feel are the important points are what make the difference between what I teach and what Tim, Kelly, et al does. Definition 2.of "style" Encarta dictionary - a way of doing something, especially a way regarded as expressing a particular attitude or typifying a particular period What I do is a style of Modern Arnis and it has a difference in name for that reason. Does it give disrespect to the founder? No. Otherwise I'd come up with a totally different name for it. That anyone's diagreement translated into a feeling of me being disrepectful is unfortunate.

Why stop at 8th? A couple of reasons. 1. It goes with the "80" and the philosophical meaning of the title. 2. It was an arbitrary place to stop as that is the highest number I would feel comfortable with. An interesting thing I found out after the fact is that the longest term students of Prof. Presas, the ones who started with him in the Philippines (Roland Dantes, Rodel Dagooc, Pepito Robas, Vic Sanchez, & Jerry DeLaCruz) all considered their ranks frozen at 8th degree as that is the highest Prof. Presas promoted them to. This is stated in Reynaldo Galang's Book Warrior Arts of the Philippines. I would've loved to claim that reason but I was too late for that.

A point I'll make here is that in seminars I have always represented myself as a student of Remy Presas. I don't push the 8th degree or all that on others outside my school. A very good cases in point is at the ArnisFest put on by IMAF, Ken Smith, when introducing me to the group I was about to teach asked me in front of eveyone if I was an 8th degree. My reply was "I am a 6th under Remy."

Kaith,

Folks see what Dan has done to be on the same level as that, but with high rank/titles that are seen as him putting himself ahead of them. Dan says this isn't the case, that his MA80 rank and his MA rank are seperate ranks. If thats true, then, why the fuss?

How many folks? Again a generality. People who talk to me don't really care one way or another. They ARE separate ranks. There is no fuss except where created and continued.

In closing, Tgace presented the perfect post that really says it all:

What "damage" or offense is Dan being accused of here anyway? Whats "wrong" with MA-80??

No damage, folks, just a disagreement.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[bart]

I'm reminded of the 85/15 and 80/20 rules used by Juran and Deming in the area of Quality Management in manufacturing.

85/15 Rule (Juran's Rule):

85% of boons or problems are a result of the system. 15% are due to the workers.

80/20 Rule (Pareto Rule):

80% of serious performance issues (positive or negative) arise from 20% of the problems or boons.

Using these two concepts it is pretty clear that a small percentage of what composes a system can greatly impact the larger remainder. Although most often understood in the subject of production problems and quality control the original context applies to both negative and positive results. 80-85% of any endeavor is the system. The remaining 15-20% is the individual. The 15-20% can impact greatly the other 80-85%. Dan's reasoning for Modern Arnis 80 seems almost tailored from the latter of these two concepts.

As for the charges of disrespect to the founder...it seems to me like Dan's giving credit where credit is due. He learned Modern Arnis and now it's Modern Arnis 80 because it's his and his teacher is dead. It's still Modern Arnis but taught by Dan in his method. The little bit that is changed seems logically enough to justify it's existence as a separate branch of that system.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dan's reasoning for Modern Arnis 80 seems almost tailored from the latter of these two concepts.

As for the charges of disrespect to the founder...it seems to me like Dan's giving credit where credit is due. He learned Modern Arnis and now it's Modern Arnis 80 because it's his and his teacher is dead. It's still Modern Arnis but taught by Dan in his method. The little bit that is changed seems logically enough to justify it's existence as a separate branch of that system.

Fascinating! I've never even heard of those concepts. Well, what do you know?

Yours,
Dan

 

[Tgace]

Hmmmm...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9550&highlight=MA-80

:idunno: