Questions regarding MA-80

[Dan Anderson]

I'm in an interesting position of being the runaway son of Remy Presas by forming my personal branch of Modern Arnis.

First and foremost I would recognize any person's rank as promoted by Remy Presas. As he was my teacher there is no way I could not recognize a rank HE presented. When I added my signature to Jeff Leader's 3rd degree certificate at the first WMAA camp, Rich Parsons (above post) told me the above and asked me if he was in the same position, would I sign his cert. I told him without hesitation that I would.

As to ranks given by any other Modern Arnis group than my own (note: I consider the CSSD/SC group as one of my own in a blood brother fashion), I hold to what I normally do in my karate school. Every person in American Freestyle Karate, no matter what their previous rank might be, starts at the bottom. I let them know that this is no invalidation of their previous accomplishments but since this is a different organization with different training methods and emphasis points, they start at white belt. This is without exception.

I would do the same with most other Modern Arnis players. Since MA-80 is mostly different in emphasis points and not so much structure (MA-80 is roughly 90-95% Remy Presas Modern Arnis), they would, most likely, progress faster than a brand new white belt. I say most Modern Arnis players because the higher ranked and (hopefully) higher skilled they are, it would be impossible to deny a black belt status. Rich Parsons would be a good example of this.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Since MA-80 is mostly different in emphasis points and not so much structure (MA-80 is roughly 90-95% Remy Presas Modern Arnis)

So why bother forming a new art if it's that similar?

 

[Dan Anderson]

So why bother forming a new art if it's that similar?

Tim,

That's an odd question coming from you as you already know the answers so I'm curious about the reason behind the post in the first place.

For those that don't know of haven't been a part of some of the threads of several years ago,

1. I predicted back in 1994 in a letter to Bram Frank that when Prof. Presas died, there would be a big "Who's on first?" flap that would spread from one coast to the other (which it did). MA-80 sidesteps that issue as it effectively takes me out of any kind of succession issue. I stepped out of that portion of the picture.

2. The lack of very specific rank requirements up to and including 1st degree black belt had ticked me off since day one. In my school I can set the ranks and the standards without interference from no one.

3. As I continue my progress through the martial arts, I learn more connecting threads, so to speak, which influences my Modern Arnis training and teaching. One example is that my blocking and striking have changed quite a bit from what little instruction I've gotten from Manong Ted Buot and balintawak eskrima. Each influence takes me a little further from "pure Remy." I have no problem with this as it was the same path that Prof. Presas took. He began in his family art and went from there to learn balintawak eskrima and from there had other influences on the way, most notably Small Circle JuJutsu in the USA.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[James Patrick]

Senior Master Dan, I have a question.

But before that, I wanted to say that I am with Paul Janulis' Tulisan Tactical Training. We are WMAA affiliates, but we don't do Modern Arnis specifically, so I am not much into the politics. But I had a chance to meet Professor a few years before his passing. He was a great man, and we all loved him. So I do read the stuff here even if I don't post much.

My question is, why create your own art (MA-80) if it is 90-95% Modern Arnis? Why not just say you teach Modern Arnis, and declare yourself independant? You could work with other Modern Arnis groups probably better that way, no?

I asked Paul about you a while back, and he had nothing but good stuff to say; that you had gotten a 6th degree and Senior Master title from Professor, and that you were a pretty famous Karate guy. It seems that you would have just as much claims to teaching Modern Arnis your way as the next guy, without having to create your own system that is basically Modern Arnis anyways.

Thanks for reading, sir. Please take my questions as just ignorant, non-political questions. No ill intent from my end here.

Yours,

James

 

[Dan Anderson]

Hi James,

First of all, it's Dan. We need not rest on titles or such. I'm glad Paul has only good things to say about me because I rank on him in fun. Paul is a good guy.

I'll take your questions in order and I'll take them at face value - for information purposes.

My question is, why create your own art (MA-80) if it is 90-95% Modern Arnis?

It is more accurate to say I created my own style or system rather than my own art. Hartman said "a new art." Any student of the martial arts knows there are no new arts, only ones you didn't know about in the first place. I keep the name "Modern Arnis" as part of it to recognize my teacher.

Why not just say you teach Modern Arnis, and declare yourself independant?

MA-80 is the way I am doing exactly just that. The last portion of the name, the 80 , is very important as it describes the viewpoint of how I teach and do Modern Arnis.

You could work with other Modern Arnis groups probably better that way, no?

Yes and no. Working with, yes. I can work with anyone autonomously because I don't have any organizational stops ahead of me. I have no head master telling me, "Welllllll, I don't think you should associate with him." Working within an organization or someone else's group, no. Case in point: I was told by Remy Presas Jr. that he would recognize all ranks his father bestowed as honorary until they came up to MARPPIO standards to be a full rank in MARPPIO. Well, consider that I have been in Modern Arnis longer than ony of the MoTTs, American Datus, and the sons of Remy Presas (his daughter MaryAnn has trained longer than the Americans), this will not do in my book.

You'll find the American senior students of Remy Presas to be somewhat of a hardheaded crew, myself included. Although the MoTTs say they are senior and the Datus say they are senior, Remy Presas never said to my face anyone was my senior but him. Boy, hardheaded aren't I? How to handle the conundrum? Simple. Do the same that I did in karate - form my own group with a title of its own.

In my eyes, all the others are fine by me. They all worked hard and earned what they have earned. There is no problem there. Remy Presas was my own head master while he was alive. As regarding Modern Arnis, I chart my own way now. There are other masters in other arts vastly senior to me. Manong Ted Buot of balintawak eskrima is definitely one of them.

James, does this anwer your questions? If you have more, fire away. Say hi to Paul for me.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Did you know that all the members of the Senior Masters Council of Modern Arnis in the Philippines have branched out into their own organizations but keep Modern Arnis as their base?

 

[James Patrick]

Dan,

Thanks for your reply. I still have a hard time understanding a few things, but that is probably just due to my lack of involvement in Modern Arnis politics.

Take care,

James

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dan,

but that is probably just due to my lack of involvement in Modern Arnis politics.

Take care,

James

James,

You one smart cookie.

Yours,
Dan

 

[arnisador]

I can't understand people who don't recognize Prof. Presas' ranks. I'm not yet ready to say I know better than he did who is and who isn't good at Modern Arnis. I don't ever expect to be ready to do that.

 

[Dan Anderson]

I can't understand people who don't recognize Prof. Presas' ranks. I'm not yet ready to say I know better than he did who is and who isn't good at Modern Arnis. I don't ever expect to be ready to do that.

Arnisador,

Yes. How does one not recognize the founder's ranks he awarded? I can see if there was a ranking system that was not delineated or explained but the numerical belt system is pretty cut and dried.

Yours,
Dan

 

[dearnis.com]

It's easy..."I wasn't there...I didn't see it....therefore it couldn't have happened."

 

[coreymin]

You could work with other Modern Arnis groups probably better that way, no?

Yes and no. Working with, yes. I can work with anyone autonomously because I don't have any organizational stops ahead of me. I have no head master telling me, "Welllllll, I don't think you should associate with him." Working within an organization or someone else's group, no. Case in point: I was told by Remy Presas Jr. that he would recognize all ranks his father bestowed as honorary until they came up to MARPPIO standards to be a full rank in MARPPIO. Well, consider that I have been in Modern Arnis longer than ony of the MoTTs, American Datus, and the sons of Remy Presas (his daughter MaryAnn has trained longer than the Americans), this will not do in my book.

Dan:

I will PM you later, but I would just like to make some statements about the Professor's son, Remy, that may have been miscommunicated or misconstrued, either way it's not as hardlined or anti-group oriented as you make it out, also this is not an attack on you either.

Remy Jr. just wants to see you move on the floor before deciding on any additional ranking. In today's learning scope of people getting Black belt ranks in Kenpo for $995 from GM Roman and online easy Tai Chi courses, MARPPIO doesn't want to align itself by handing out ranks like a factory...they are not in the business side, they are on the legacy side. In other words, Remy Jr. is doing what his father wanted him to do and carry on as his last wish BEFORE he died. If it were me, I would want my chidlren as well to carry on all the stuff I learned into the next generation, so let's take this issue as a humanistic view here, please. In addition, if you don't have a school already in place, such as the MARPPIO group did, they don't have a financial base to branch out from, what that means is that any $$ they get barely cover plane costs, hotels, food, etc...we've already had one of Remy's die hards screw MARPPIO out of these things in Bellview, WA and when they went home, had less money than when they started...the MARPPIO guys live in CA, they have bills just like we do. Doing seminars around the US is not Remy Jr.'s first choice for a job...he is formally trained as a PhD, and as a scholar, likes the formality of teaching in the classroom setting, with salary, with benes, and all that...to leave it all for seminar training? In the honor side, he's doing the right thing. If you would have MARPPIO over to do a seminar, Dan, you would easily qualify for cross-rank in MARPPIO, but at least you would be seen, heard, and such so that Remy could give you that personal touch...

The MARPPIO group is the most NON-POLITICAL group here, guys! If you want to help their group in any way, in an honorable fashion, believe me, they are gonna support you...Remy has cross-ranked many guys in the NSI group simply because we hold seminars with them, trade information, and look to support the Professor's last wish, simple as that. He has also worked with groups outside of NSI as well, and continues to work with them and grade them. So this argument is just moot. Dan, just bring them in if you can and you'll see what I mean. Remy Jr. is all about inclusion, not exclusion. He still has his father's fire and drive, but simply put, he is not his father...

On the side of Seniority, Dan, if you started in 1980, what time do you think Remy's offspring started? Do you know who they trained with? I know early on that Remy Jr. trained from a little kid with his father, Rodell Dagooc (8th Dan), and other senior masters in the PI. The only time he stopped was to work on his master's degree and two PhD's. How long of a layoff do you think a couple of PhD's would take? And, would we as "seniors" think we can just remove the time he spent training to make our pecking order in America to look better? I think not. In Karate, which you have studied, you may understand historically the founder's children are ABOVE any ranking system in place, they don't have rank...they only give it! It may be the case you feel Remy Jr. isn't as skilled as you or others, but this is sidetracking the issue. Remy is acting to connect the groups, through a legitimate bloodline, not only with Mary's blessing, but with the Professor's. I am not going to give backhanded compliments to Remy Jr. or deny the wishes of the GM by NOT supporting MARPPIO.

Remy Jr. like his father, only guides and directs. He never works in black and white...please accept this post to find out personally about MARPPIO, not a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th perspective, not gossip, or otherwise. Thanks for viewing this post, and good day to all of you.

Sincerely,

Corey Minatani
National Director, Washington Research Council of Martial Arts
www.wrcma.org

 

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Corey,

Let me answer a couple of points.

Dan:

I will PM you later, but I would just like to make some statements about the Professor's son, Remy, that may have been miscommunicated or misconstrued, either way it's not as hardlined or anti-group oriented as you make it out, also this is not an attack on you either.

Remy Jr. doesn't know me from Adam so I don't think there is any personal attack. However, he did say exactly that to me and his English is far better than his father's.


Remy Jr. just wants to see you move on the floor before deciding on any additional ranking.
The hypothetical question I was asking him was about recognition in MARPPIO, not necessarily additional ranking. In all fairness to Remy Jr. he did not say, "You, Dan, have to come up to MARPPIO standards." We were talking in generalities.


...they are not in the business side, they are on the legacy side. In other words, Remy Jr. is doing what his father wanted him to do and carry on as his last wish BEFORE he died. If it were me, I would want my chidlren as well to carry on all the stuff I learned into the next generation, so let's take this issue as a humanistic view here, please.
Not a problem.

In addition, if you don't have a school already in place, such as the MARPPIO group did, they don't have a financial base to branch out from, what that means is that any $$ they get barely cover plane costs, hotels, food, etc...we've already had one of Remy's die hards screw MARPPIO out of these things in Bellview, WA and when they went home, had less money than when they started...the MARPPIO guys live in CA, they have bills just like we do. Doing seminars around the US is not Remy Jr.'s first choice for a job...he is formally trained as a PhD, and as a scholar, likes the formality of teaching in the classroom setting, with salary, with benes, and all that...to leave it all for seminar training? In the honor side, he's doing the right thing.
Again, not a problem. In fact, that's a pretty brave thing to do.

If you would have MARPPIO over to do a seminar, Dan, you would easily qualify for cross-rank in MARPPIO, but at least you would be seen, heard, and such so that Remy could give you that personal touch...
Not looking for rank in MARPPIO. More personal than Remy Sr.?


The MARPPIO group is the most NON-POLITICAL group here, guys! If you want to help their group in any way, in an honorable fashion, believe me, they are gonna support you...Remy has cross-ranked many guys in the NSI group simply because we hold seminars with them, trade information, and look to support the Professor's last wish, simple as that. He has also worked with groups outside of NSI as well, and continues to work with them and grade them. So this argument is just moot. Dan, just bring them in if you can and you'll see what I mean. Remy Jr. is all about inclusion, not exclusion. He still has his father's fire and drive, but simply put, he is not his father...

On the side of Seniority, Dan, if you started in 1980, what time do you think Remy's offspring started? Do you know who they trained with? I know early on that Remy Jr. trained from a little kid with his father, Rodell Dagooc (8th Dan), and other senior masters in the PI.
Remy Sr. lamented to me in the about his kids not training except for his daughter. If I didn't get the FULL data on that, I stand corrected. For the sake of info, how long did Remy Jr. train in the PI, from what age to what age?

The only time he stopped was to work on his master's degree and two PhD's. How long of a layoff do you think a couple of PhD's would take? And, would we as "seniors" think we can just remove the time he spent training to make our pecking order in America to look better? I think not. In Karate, which you have studied, you may understand historically the founder's children are ABOVE any ranking system in place, they don't have rank...they only give it!
That is moreso Japanese karate, etc. I haven't read anything about it in the Filipino culture. I will check with my contacts in the PI and if I am wrong, again, I stand corrected.

It may be the case you feel Remy Jr. isn't as skilled as you or others, but this is sidetracking the issue. Remy is acting to connect the groups, through a legitimate bloodline, not only with Mary's blessing, but with the Professor's. I am not going to give backhanded compliments to Remy Jr. or deny the wishes of the GM by NOT supporting MARPPIO.

Remy Jr. like his father, only guides and directs. He never works in black and white...please accept this post to find out personally about MARPPIO, not a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th perspective, not gossip, or otherwise. Thanks for viewing this post, and good day to all of you.
And to you as well, Corey.

Sincerely,

Corey Minatani
National Director, Washington Research Council of Martial Arts
www.wrcma.org

 

[Dan Anderson]

It's easy..."I wasn't there...I didn't see it....therefore it couldn't have happened."

Chad,

Not quite so. I have heard varying stories from the various American seniors in Modern Arnis regarding the various titles and the ones who arent' a particular title tell me stories about the origins of that title in disparaging terms while standing up for the title they themselves have. If you wish I can PM you with exact details but it is not for public post.

The key here is that RP never publicly clarified any of the titles. The recipients have but up to his death, RP never did. I include the senior master title I recieved as well. What was publicly verified and validated was numerical rank. I do not doubt that things were said behind closed doors. Hell, how many of us were privately slated to be the successor?
Too many. that is what I mean by my remark.

I don't have any problem with anyone's title as in the end, it is the products they turn out, their students, that make all the difference in the world.

Yours,
Dan

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Tim,

That's an odd question coming from you as you already know the answers so I'm curious about the reason behind the post in the first place.

Simple, I’ve never bought your explanation in the past and now that YOU put in print that there is only 5 – 10% that is not Modern Arnis in the program it makes me ask the question why.

If I take my 04’ Impala and give it a custom paint job, new wheels and stereo it’s been slightly modified, but according to General Motors (the manufacturer of the car) as well as the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) it’s still just an 04’ Impala.

1. I predicted back in 1994 in a letter to Bram Frank that when Prof. Presas died, there would be a big "Who's on first?" flap that would spread from one coast to the other (which it did). MA-80 sidesteps that issue as it effectively takes me out of any kind of succession issue. I stepped out of that portion of the picture.

Yes you certainly sidestep out of things and into others. The problem is that you seem to be the ONLY person who understands YOUR concept. The rest of the Modern Arnis community thinks that it’s a joke.

2. The lack of very specific rank requirements up to and including 1st degree black belt had ticked me off since day one. In my school I can set the ranks and the standards without interference from no one.

I’m sorry you felt that people could interfere in the running of your school. No one could do that in mine. I made ALL of the decisions when it came to promotions. Not even Remy. When I had students ready for Black Belt I would take them to him, all color belt promotions where left up to me.

3. As I continue my progress through the martial arts, I learn more connecting threads, so to speak, which influences my Modern Arnis training and teaching. One example is that my blocking and striking have changed quite a bit from what little instruction I've gotten from Manong Ted Buot and Balintawak Eskrima. Each influence takes me a little further from "pure Remy." I have no problem with this as it was the same path that Prof. Presas took. He began in his family art and went from there to learn Balintawak Eskrima and from there had other influences on the way, most notably Small Circle Jujutsu in the USA.

How does exploring our roots take us farther away from Modern Arnis? Balintawak is throughout Modern Arnis and if you actually saw Ted more than three times you might know that.

I was told by Remy Presas Jr. that he would recognize all ranks his father bestowed as honorary until they came up to MARPPIO standards to be a full rank in MARPPIO. Well, consider that I have been in Modern Arnis longer than only of the MoTTs, American Datus, and the sons of Remy Presas (his daughter MaryAnn has trained longer than the Americans), this will not do in my book.

So what you’re saying is that since you started before someone they can’t surpass you in knowledge and skill?

Dan, the thing is that you have been confusing tolerance for acceptance. Many of us have been putting up with this since you started this nonsense and I for one have had enough. I'm not mixing words this time. I've tried to be subtle in the past but you missed my point. Maybe it’s time you took a long hard look in the mirror.

 

[Dan Anderson]

1. Simple, I’ve never bought your explanation in the past and now that YOU put in print that there is only 5 – 10% that is not Modern Arnis in the program it makes me ask the question why.

2. If I take my 04’ Impala and give it a custom paint job, new wheels and stereo it’s been slightly modified, but according to General Motors (the manufacturer of the car) as well as the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) it’s still just an 04’ Impala.

3. Yes you certainly sidestep out of things and into others. The problem is that you seem to be the ONLY person who understands YOUR concept. The rest of the Modern Arnis community thinks that it’s a joke.

4. I’m sorry you felt that people could interfere in the running of your school. No one could do that in mine. I made ALL of the decisions when it came to promotions. Not even Remy. When I had students ready for Black Belt I would take them to him, all color belt promotions where left up to me.

4. How does exploring our roots take us farther away from Modern Arnis? Balintawak is throughout Modern Arnis and if you actually saw Ted more than three times you might know that.

5. So what you’re saying is that since you started before someone they can’t surpass you in knowledge and skill?

6. Dan, the thing is that you have been confusing tolerance for acceptance. Many of us have been putting up with this since you started this nonsense and I for one have had enough. I'm not mixing words this time. I've tried to be subtle in the past but you missed my point. Maybe it’s time you took a long hard look in the mirror.

Well, it's about time you spoke up.

1. That you or anyone else "buys" my explanation had nothing to do with the high price of corn or anything else. I will explain a vioewpoint but it is up to anyone to accept or reject it. Makes no difference on this end.

2. The art is not an auto.

3. What you say the rest of the community thinks is not necessarily what the rest of the community thinks. That is such an incredible generality that it bears no further comment. If you want to be brave and quote specifics in print, please do. Exact time, place, form, and event would be appreciated. You have to be original and not quote Kelly. He has been quite forthcoming in his disagreements with me.

4. Exploring the roots does not take us further. What the roots show us is that certain things were taught differently when taught to us by Prof. Presas. I used balintawak eskrima as an example, not the example. There are more influences.

5. That's what you are saying. I have enough words in my mouth wihtout you trying to fit more in.

6. Yo, Sparky! Again the generality, many of us. Didn't we go there two years ago? Hmmmm. Names and quotes, please. Otherwise it's just elephant talk and you know it. Those who have disagreed with me in the past have done so, including you. Those who have agreed with me, have. And those who have decided not to really give a flying rip have shown wisdom beyond their years. Whether I have your agreement, tolerance, or whatever is immaterial. As to a hard look in the mirror, I sleep just fine at night.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Harold! Food fiiiiiiiight!!!! :flame: :CTF:

 

[Tgace]

Is this a private thread or can anybody jump in?

What is this debate "really" about?

 

[Cebu West]

The fact that I am with Datu Hartman and the WMAA will probably taint any comments I have on this subject, but this quote of yours seems to speak volumes.

Quote
"I was told by Remy Presas Jr. that he would recognize all ranks his father bestowed as honorary until they came up to MARPPIO standards to be a full rank in MARPPIO. Well, consider that I have been in Modern Arnis longer than only of the MoTTs, American Datus, and the sons of Remy Presas (his daughter MaryAnn has trained longer than the Americans), this will not do in my book."

What I see is an angry man who feels cheated out of what he believes is his rightful place in the legacy of Modern Arnis. This would also explain why you jumped to an 8th degree in your MA-80. It puts you ahead of all those named in the quote above. When you were with the WMAA we tried to work with you, however your path seemed pre-determined and what we had to offer wasn't good enough. I feel bad that you decided to go it alone.You could have had a very good working relationship with us. We were on your side.

 

[Bester]

Mr. Anderson,
I vaguely remember a comment you made a while ago. Please forgive me if I misquote you here, it has been a while. You said, I believe, that one of the last things Prof. Presas said to you prior to his passing was "Get involved". Why would he have said that if you were active and involved?

I recall someone else stating that he (Prof. Presas) thought you had retired.

If you weren't involved, and you weren't active, and you hadn't been around, what gives you the the idea that you should somehow be ahead of those who were? You may have started sooner than many, but how many hours have you logged compared to them? 50 hours in 5 years is not the same as 1,000 hours in a year. I'd say the later outranks the former.

But, what do I know? Other than ranks should mean something, and be an indication of ability. Not favortism, ego, or age. Build an organization, train a generation, and let your achievements speak for themselves. Never mind the BS wall-candy, and ego-stoking "promotions".

True masters need not rank, nor titles, nor paper.
They let their skill, and that of their students speak for them.


For the record, I'm not involved in any FMA, other than I'll do a little stick sparring when the opportunity is there.

 

[arnisador]

We were on your side.

Definitely!

 

[chris...]

What does the 80 stand for?