Questionable pasts

[ppko]

I have noticed in the past few years as I myself have grown as a person and a martial artist how many big name and no name people have questionable pasts, how long has this been a trend and what are your oppinions on why they do it and how they get away with it

btw this is the 6000 thread

 

[terryl965]

I have noticed in the past few years as I myself have grown as a person and a martial artist how many big name and no name people have questionable pasts, how long has this been a trend and what are your oppinions on why they do it and how they get away with it

btw this is the 6000 thread

Are we talking about Martial Artist and what does 6000 threads have to do with it, sorry I am tired and on cold medicine right now.

 

[ppko]

Are we talking about Martial Artist and what does 6000 threads have to do with it, sorry I am tired and on cold medicine right now.

I am talking about Martial Artist and I noticed after I posted the thread that it was thread 6000 so I edited it and just made note of it

 

[terryl965]

I am talking about Martial Artist and I noticed after I posted the thread that it was thread 6000 so I edited it and just made note of it

OK then.

I believe some people have figured out that the average person looks at rank and inflated records as a competitor to get more students. It is also common practice to build one self up to be more the bad *** to get quality studens. The average person see's 10 certificates on the wall and figure man they are great or they would not have so many insteead of how can hey be so many and be proficentin the arts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have noticed in the past few years as I myself have grown as a person and a martial artist how many big name and no name people have questionable pasts, how long has this been a trend and what are your oppinions on why they do it and how they get away with it

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are asking here.

What do you mean by questionable past; training, crime, drugs, alcohol, lies, etc?

But like terry I am suffering form a rather nasty head cold at the moment so maybe it is just me

 

[ppko]

OK then.

I believe some people have figured out that the average person looks at rank and inflated records as a competitor to get more students. It is also common practice to build one self up to be more the bad *** to get quality studens. The average person see's 10 certificates on the wall and figure man they are great or they would not have so many insteead of how can hey be so many and be proficentin the arts.

I agree with you for the most part but how do those of us that have been in for a while with a questionable instructor(not saying anyone in particular on here) stay with that instructor and not question there past or search for the truth.

 

[ppko]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are asking here.

What do you mean by questionable past; training, crime, drugs, alcohol, lies, etc?

But like terry I am suffering form a rather nasty head cold at the moment so maybe it is just me

all those matter but when I started I was mainly referring lies about there past

 

[grydth]

In many cases, it is people wanting more than they have, and feeling they got cheated by society somehow.

It is not limited to the martial arts.... I saw a case where an Army E-9, that's right, a Command Sergeant Major, added all sorts of phony accomplishments to both his personnel folder and his uniform. As the Military Judge noted on sentencing, the crime was "so stupid" because it was done when the man was already promotable to E-9. Apparently, this guy thought achieving the highest enlisted rank wasn't enough, and that he'd been denied various things along the way. So he finished his career with a conviction... so they do not always get away with it.

Others feel that as a marketing tool they have to be 22d Dan Soke Grandmaster, as if excellent skills by a go dan in an established art might not be enough to attract any students. Perhaps having an excellent side kick would be thought ordinary.... so how about claiming a secret ninja chi powered no touch knock out ability?

While I personally do not absolve wrongdoers of responsibility because of society, we do need to recognize this is a ticket punch, glam society we live in. Remember all the ridiculous awards heaped on Michael Jackson, things like "Entertainer of the Millenium"..... well, until his unnatural affinity for young boys came to light. Of what real value are these 'honors', in any sense?

Too many want the paper or the trophy, irregardless of any real accomplishment behind it? Who can spend 30 years in an art - - - why after just 2 years it's 'an oldie', or on the wrong side of 'what's hot, what's not'.

 

[ppko]

In many cases, it is people wanting more than they have, and feeling they got cheated by society somehow.

It is not limited to the martial arts.... I saw a case where an Army E-9, that's right, a Command Sergeant Major, added all sorts of phony accomplishments to both his personnel folder and his uniform. As the Military Judge noted on sentencing, the crime was "so stupid" because it was done when the man was already promotable to E-9. Apparently, this guy thought achieving the highest enlisted rank wasn't enough, and that he'd been denied various things along the way. So he finished his career with a conviction... so they do not always get away with it.

Others feel that as a marketing tool they have to be 22d Dan Soke Grandmaster, as if excellent skills by a go dan in an established art might not be enough to attract any students. Perhaps having an excellent side kick would be thought ordinary.... so how about claiming a secret ninja chi powered no touch knock out ability?

While I personally do not absolve wrongdoers of responsibility because of society, we do need to recognize this is a ticket punch, glam society we live in. Remember all the ridiculous awards heaped on Michael Jackson, things like "Entertainer of the Millenium"..... well, until his unnatural affinity for young boys came to light. Of what real value are these 'honors', in any sense?

Too many want the paper or the trophy, irregardless of any real accomplishment behind it? Who can spend 30 years in an art - - - why after just 2 years it's 'an oldie', or on the wrong side of 'what's hot, what's not'.

I agree and you know its too bad we cant prove a lot of these guys/gals pasts to be down right lies and get these guys/gals convicted for fraud

 

[grydth]

From what I have seen, Martial Artists are terrible when it comes to routing out fraud.

This forum itself will show you contentious debates on what is or is not "Yang Tai-Chi"..... yet the main entity to blame for all the confusion, I feel, is the Yang Family itself. For years, as large derivative movements led by Cheng Man-Ching, T.T.Liang and Yang Jwing-Ming (among others) sprang up, the Yang Family for decades was silent. Now, when debates occur, who is to say what is accepted/real/evolutionary/fraud/heresy? Those who could have resolved, if not prevented, the problems slept on their rights. Inexcusable!

I have heard of other instances of forcible action - but is this righteous rooting out of frauds or perhaps is it thugs eliminating any competition?

Like frauds in other areas of our society, the MA ones have taken to providing long lists of references( themselves fakes, of course.). But it takes work to run those down, and if the MA powers that be may have taken a Sokeship Certificate or two when they were young and needed the money, well.....

 

[terryl965]

I agree with you for the most part but how do those of us that have been in for a while with a questionable instructor(not saying anyone in particular on here) stay with that instructor and not question there past or search for the truth.

That is a great question for me it is simple if I need to ask I do and will listen to them explain. Sometimes we need to ask question in order to understand, but in the MA you are told to believe in blind faith alot.

 

[ppko]

That is a great question for me it is simple if I need to ask I do and will listen to them explain. Sometimes we need to ask question in order to understand, but in the MA you are told to believe in blind faith alot.

I tell my students to ask and explore I think the more you know about your instructors past and your arts the better I dont want to produce people that think like me I want my students to have free thought and be able to express there own art

 

[Cryozombie]

From what I have seen, Martial Artists are terrible when it comes to routing out fraud.

Now, when debates occur, who is to say what is accepted/real/evolutionary/fraud/heresy? Those who could have resolved, if not prevented, the problems slept on their rights. Inexcusable!

It doesn't help either when facts are presented, and the students of the Liar/Fraud jump to defend their "master" mainly because they simply cannot/will not believe they can have been lied to or decieved, or when people cow-tow to threats of lawsuits and refuse to allow/engague in discussions about it... that way when people with less idea who these frauds are go looking for info on them and cannot find it, they are taken in, and fall into the first group I mentioned... the "brainwashed student"

 

[YoungMan]

Realize:
With few exceptions, many of the so-called big name martial artists have gotten there by getting people to pay attention to them, getting on the cover of magazines, offering seminars to all willing to pay, and generally selling out whatever integrity they might have had for the almighty buck and fame. It doesn't surprise me at all that they embellish their past, lie, and create phony histories. It all comes down to being more famous than the other guy.
That's why I have no use for them.

 

[kidswarrior]

Realize:
With few exceptions, many of the so-called big name martial artists have gotten there by getting people to pay attention to them, getting on the cover of magazines, offering seminars to all willing to pay, and generally selling out whatever integrity they might have had for the almighty buck and fame. It doesn't surprise me at all that they embellish their past, lie, and create phony histories. It all comes down to being more famous than the other guy.

Or knowing/name dropping/being in lineage of someone who is.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are asking here.

What do you mean by questionable past; training, crime, drugs, alcohol, lies, etc?

But like terry I am suffering form a rather nasty head cold at the moment so maybe it is just me

I had the same questions.

Are you questioning their training?

Are you questioning their skill?

Are you questioning their certificates or belts?


Are you questioning that they had real fights at one time in their life?


Are you questioning that they may have legal issues at one time in their life, be it criminal or civil?

Confused minds want to know.

 

[Ronin74]

I agree with you for the most part but how do those of us that have been in for a while with a questionable instructor(not saying anyone in particular on here) stay with that instructor and not question there past or search for the truth.

Well, from the personal experience I posted in a previous thread, sometimes, it's a matter of time. When I first started, the common mindset was to assume or expect that the teacher was of an upstanding character, and it wasn't until the last few years for me, that certain stories, corroborated by other former members/training partners, that the teacher's character came into question.

Now I also need to mention a very strong point also made in the aforementioned thread. Despite questions of the teacher's character, their credentials and abilities as a teacher may not be questionable. I know it's hard to make that seperation, but in the end, a teacher's goal is to impart their art, and not their character. Of course, we hope that our teacher's serve as a role model for both skill and character, but clearly, it's not always the case.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are asking here.

What do you mean by questionable past; training, crime, drugs, alcohol, lies, etc?

But like terry I am suffering form a rather nasty head cold at the moment so maybe it is just me

Lies about past in the west equate to money that is about it.

My first sifu originally taught what he knew and told you were it came from. But then he discovered the face matters more than the skill in the west. He is from China and once he realized that he began to claim all sorts of lineages, most of which he learned from video. His school got rather large and he now makes a whole lot of money selling videos of styles he learned form videos.

 

[ppko]

I had the same questions.

Are you questioning their training?

Are you questioning their skill?

Are you questioning their certificates or belts?


Are you questioning that they had real fights at one time in their life?


Are you questioning that they may have legal issues at one time in their life, be it criminal or civil?

Confused minds want to know.

I was just refering to the lies and deceptions told by different instructors

 

[rmclain]

I was just refering to the lies and deceptions told by different instructors

This is why it is so important for prospective students to check instructor's credentials and make some phone calls. Especially, the instructor should readily know the full name and contact information to their instructor and give it freely to prospects.

I've seen plenty of instructors with rank in some organization, yet they never list who their teacher was, or their teacher's teacher.

R. McLain