Kamaria Annina
Green Belt
If they come into a dojang without being able to do the basic kicks... then it's apparent that they need to start off as a white belt. If they seem to know what they are doing, then keep them as their current rank.
Question for Instructors
- Thread starter terryl965
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D
Disco
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There's been many fine answers with equal keeping the rank and starting over at white belt. Two things to keep in mind here. 1) Does the rank come from the same style? If not, are the basic's similar? As was pointed out, BB in TKD does not equate to BB in Judo. If the style has similar traits, then he/she should be able to perform the basic kicks and blocks and movements. Does not have to be at olympic level, but should be at least in the fair range. I realize that is subjective, but we all can agree on a given range of being to do what's asked and it at least looks like what we wanted to see. The only caveat should be coming back from an injury. 2) Allowing someone to display high ranking that can't perform (injury excluded), only makes the school in general look bad to outsiders.
Miles
Senior Master
hardheadjarhead said:
H
Homy
Guest
another vote for the start over..or alternately (esp if they are returning to the same style after a long time) give them a option/chance to get up to speed..unbelted
my 0.02c
my 0.02c
I agree! You'll find out who wants to train and who wants a a belt. :asian:Miles said:
cashwo
Green Belt
I have been pondering this question myself for the past week. I used to train at this one place about 6 years ago and made it about half way to my black belt but due to things that happen in life I had to quit, move to another sate, get married, and find a career. Unfortunately my training fell to the way side and I haven't trained since.
I am back in the state that I grew up in so I'm am going tomorrow to start again at the same place where I held rank. I have decided (if my teacher gives me the option) to start over as a white belt. I still remember the kicks, punches, stances, and one form (kinda) but I personally feel that it would be better for me to start over instead of trying to play catch up. Besides, I'm not going back for the belt, I'm going for the training so the belt really doesn't matter to me. My health and learning the art is. Just my 2 cents.
I am back in the state that I grew up in so I'm am going tomorrow to start again at the same place where I held rank. I have decided (if my teacher gives me the option) to start over as a white belt. I still remember the kicks, punches, stances, and one form (kinda) but I personally feel that it would be better for me to start over instead of trying to play catch up. Besides, I'm not going back for the belt, I'm going for the training so the belt really doesn't matter to me. My health and learning the art is. Just my 2 cents.
BrandiJo
Master of Arts
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when i changed school cus of college i was allwed to keep my rank,but i had to learn things there way and go back and pick up somethings not coverd by my old school, if you really want to keep training its worth it. I did sometimes catch myself saying thats not how i do it, but with a nice reminder (ush pushups) i would accept the way they are doing things
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
If someone joined my class who was the same organization but different Instructor, obviously they get to keep their rank. If they are from a different Tae Kwon Do organization, I'd have to watch their technique before making a decision. Generally, a Tae Kwon Do Dan holder would keep his rank (unless he was really bad), and stay that rank while he caught up. Additionally, TKD custom dictates that if he is serious about joining class, and not just visiting, his previous Instructor needs to give permission to join my class. This is to prevent students who may have had a falling out with their Instructor joining my class out of revenge. Additionally, a Dan holder from a different school can join my class, but could not become a Master Instructor.
Color belts I would probably have start over again. Too many bad habits to have to work around.
I would also have Dan holders from similar styles (Karate, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido etc.) start over again. A TSD black belt is not the same as a TKD black belt and cannot be treated as such. Similar in some aspects but not the same. Same with Dan holders from totally different styles. I respect an Aikido black belt, but you start over practicing Tae Kwon Do.
Color belts I would probably have start over again. Too many bad habits to have to work around.
I would also have Dan holders from similar styles (Karate, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido etc.) start over again. A TSD black belt is not the same as a TKD black belt and cannot be treated as such. Similar in some aspects but not the same. Same with Dan holders from totally different styles. I respect an Aikido black belt, but you start over practicing Tae Kwon Do.
D
Disco
Guest
MichiganTKD, two questions.
1). If a dan ranked person had a falling out with their instructor and is now seeking new training, then that person is a "free agent" so to speak. They in actuality have no instructor. Protocal dictates that they would offer the information, to a degree, on why they departed their prior facility. But I fail to see the rational for seeking their former instructors permission. If you had such a person and their former instructor painted a less than favorable response to your seeking their permission, would you still accept this new student? Taking into consideration that you have heard both sides of the story and naturally they are in conflict with one another. If were only talking about a personality conflict or something to do with training or the lack thereof. Anything of a more defamatory nature would be grounds for non-acceptance is understood.
2). If accepted into your school, why could this person not be able to achieve a Master Instructor level? I can understand not walking right into this position, but if they continue to train and belong to whatever organization or kwan that you represent, why couldn't they reach that level?
Thanks in advance for your reply
1). If a dan ranked person had a falling out with their instructor and is now seeking new training, then that person is a "free agent" so to speak. They in actuality have no instructor. Protocal dictates that they would offer the information, to a degree, on why they departed their prior facility. But I fail to see the rational for seeking their former instructors permission. If you had such a person and their former instructor painted a less than favorable response to your seeking their permission, would you still accept this new student? Taking into consideration that you have heard both sides of the story and naturally they are in conflict with one another. If were only talking about a personality conflict or something to do with training or the lack thereof. Anything of a more defamatory nature would be grounds for non-acceptance is understood.
2). If accepted into your school, why could this person not be able to achieve a Master Instructor level? I can understand not walking right into this position, but if they continue to train and belong to whatever organization or kwan that you represent, why couldn't they reach that level?
Thanks in advance for your reply
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
1. it is important to understand WHY that student left the instruction of their previous school before you accept him/her as a student. For instance, if it turns out that that student went behind his Instructor's back, was disloyal, or displayed other dishonorable behavior and was cut, I cannot accept them as a student. How do I know they would not do the same thing to me? It is quite another if they move or something similar. They simply need a new place to train, but they have not angered their Instructor. Traditionally, transfer students would bring a letter of recommendation from their old Instructor.
The same rule would apply if a student within our organization approached me about training at my school. I would call or e-mail their Instructor to make sure they are okay with it. This is traditional tae kwon Do etiquette.
2. I cannot recommend a Dan holder from a different organization to Master Instructor because they must have been my student or a member of our organization from the beginning. I'm not exactly sure why, but it is Tae Kwon Do custom. I think it was explained once, but I don't remember exactly. One of our black belts trained originally in SE Asia and received 1st Dan. After returning to America, he joined our organization and made it to 2nd or 3rd Dan. But because he could not locate his original Instructor, and due to the fact that he earned 1st Dan elsewhere, he was ineligible for Master level.
One of our Grand Rapids Instructors has a black belt who was originally an ITF Instructor (and blind). He cannot be a Master for the same reason. To my knowlege, every Master in our organization started with us.
The same rule would apply if a student within our organization approached me about training at my school. I would call or e-mail their Instructor to make sure they are okay with it. This is traditional tae kwon Do etiquette.
2. I cannot recommend a Dan holder from a different organization to Master Instructor because they must have been my student or a member of our organization from the beginning. I'm not exactly sure why, but it is Tae Kwon Do custom. I think it was explained once, but I don't remember exactly. One of our black belts trained originally in SE Asia and received 1st Dan. After returning to America, he joined our organization and made it to 2nd or 3rd Dan. But because he could not locate his original Instructor, and due to the fact that he earned 1st Dan elsewhere, he was ineligible for Master level.
One of our Grand Rapids Instructors has a black belt who was originally an ITF Instructor (and blind). He cannot be a Master for the same reason. To my knowlege, every Master in our organization started with us.
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MichiganTKD said:
MichTKD, I don't understand that statement. You probably understand why I'm asking but.. why would this be considered revenge to leave one school without "permission" and join another school. Sometimes the solution is for the student to leave a school and get a new and better instructor...without his old instructor's permission too. And describing it as "revenge" seems a leap. How is changing schools getting back at the old instructor? TW
Miles
Senior Master
As to #1, this is a pretty old tradition in MA. However, it is not observed much in my opinion. The idea behind it is that accepting a student meant he/she was becoming a member of your family as arts were taught that way. You just don't take anyone into your family.MichiganTKD said:
With the advent of the commercial school however, it does not seem to be as relevant. I do agree that the prospective Instructor must ask the student why he/she left their former instructor-the student might be someone you also do not wish to teach. But, generally, the door in our dojang swings both ways. If the student feels I am providing them with good instruction, they stay, if not, the door is not locked from the inside.
As to #2, I have never heard of that. So if I was a 1st dan and came into your organization, I could never be a Master? What if I was an ITF 1st dan and started over as a white belt?
Thanks for your response!
Miles
Miles
Senior Master
TW, not addressed to me, but what I have seen is that sometimes a student will "shop themselves" (for lack of better phrase) to see if another instructor will give them a higher rank. They then return to their former instructor and demand same rank.TigerWoman said:
I unfortunately had this happen to me in business where I hired Charles, he worked 1 day, then went back to his old employer having shown them that he was worth more on the market than what they had been paying him. Ouch! To this day, in my office, we call that "pulling a Chuckie."
Miles
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
Miles said:
Miles...I should have mentioned that I observe that caveat. If the art is a "hard style" like a karate system, then they get to wear the belt. A Judoka or Aikido practitioner would not.
MichiganTKD states "...if it turns out that that student went behind his Instructor's back, was disloyal, or displayed other dishonorable behavior and was cut, I cannot accept them...."
There are other considerations here. Which version of the rift does one buy into? The student who leaves for good reason might be labeled "disloyal" by the instructor when the instructor himself might be abusive and/or corrupt. I had a flood of students come to me from across town because of a situation like this. In the instructor's eyes they were "disloyal," yet the parents of the children in question reported he was verbally abusive. Adults who were in his program confirmed this.
As for limiting the award of master rankings to those that start with an association...I find no sense to that and it smacks of xenophobia. If a person's technical ability, teaching skill and character are of a high quality I can see no reason to limit his or her advancement. To be told "I'm not exactly sure why, but it is Tae Kwon Do custom," automatically sets off alarm bells with me. There are times when "custom" and "tradition" are nothing more than pleasant euphemisms for bigotry.
Regards,
Steve
D
Disco
Guest
Just a side-bar observation on question and answer #2. "Due to the fact that he earned 1st Dan elsewhere, he was ineligible for Master level".
Because of this positioning, are you not forcing this person to leave and seek an organization that will allow them to continue on in their growth in the arts. Now some say that growth is self awareness and education and I agree, but growth also has a route for other's to see and validate, which is having a position or in this case rank. How would you or anyone else, leave a company, for what ever varied reason, and find that your new place of employment would/will not promote you because of a standard policy directive. You are being discriminated against and for what?
Were not talking about the belt jumpers here. It's about a person that is really into the arts and finds themselves removed from their original school/instructor(s). There are lots of people out there that have/will find themselves in such a position and will be forced to align with an organization, that some may feel/think is somewhat less than what we feel it should be. I realize that within the formal TKD community, they have their standard protocals, but by their own positionings they are driving away their own students.
Because of this positioning, are you not forcing this person to leave and seek an organization that will allow them to continue on in their growth in the arts. Now some say that growth is self awareness and education and I agree, but growth also has a route for other's to see and validate, which is having a position or in this case rank. How would you or anyone else, leave a company, for what ever varied reason, and find that your new place of employment would/will not promote you because of a standard policy directive. You are being discriminated against and for what?
Were not talking about the belt jumpers here. It's about a person that is really into the arts and finds themselves removed from their original school/instructor(s). There are lots of people out there that have/will find themselves in such a position and will be forced to align with an organization, that some may feel/think is somewhat less than what we feel it should be. I realize that within the formal TKD community, they have their standard protocals, but by their own positionings they are driving away their own students.
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
Something to kep in mind: As we progress farther away from the teaching of our original GM, it is inevitable that changes will be made. He would not recommend Dan students who started elsewhere to Master level. It is conceivable that his students and grandstudents, who may or may not be familiar with his ways, would adapt new rules for new situations. Some or many of them possibly would recommend a student to Maser level who earned 1st Dan elsewhere who has shown great loyalty and respect. Or maybe not.
keep in mind also, he is using traditional Tae Kwon Do etiquette as practiced in Korea. Sometimes his students remind him that America is a different culture and that approach doesn't always work.
I think his mentality is if you earn 1st Dan from a different Instructor, you will ALWAYS be a student of that Instructor, irregardless of your relationship with him. Recommending someone to Master is a very high honor, given to a student who is like your child. You cultivated and nurtured them from the beginning, and they are completely loyal to you. Not brainwashed, but loyal in the Master/student-parent/child sense. To him, a 1st Dan from another Instructor means your loyalties will always lie elsewhere. Again, newer generations of Instructors may be more willing to overlook that. Some of them already do things he never did, because he is now more willing to allow independent decisions.
keep in mind also, he is using traditional Tae Kwon Do etiquette as practiced in Korea. Sometimes his students remind him that America is a different culture and that approach doesn't always work.
I think his mentality is if you earn 1st Dan from a different Instructor, you will ALWAYS be a student of that Instructor, irregardless of your relationship with him. Recommending someone to Master is a very high honor, given to a student who is like your child. You cultivated and nurtured them from the beginning, and they are completely loyal to you. Not brainwashed, but loyal in the Master/student-parent/child sense. To him, a 1st Dan from another Instructor means your loyalties will always lie elsewhere. Again, newer generations of Instructors may be more willing to overlook that. Some of them already do things he never did, because he is now more willing to allow independent decisions.
cashwo
Green Belt
Ok, this is a follow up to my last message on this thread. I started back today to the school that I used to go to about 6 years ago (same teacher). I was mid-ranked. Nobody said anything except when I filled out my paperwork what I was ranked. The lady told me to take it with my teacher. Well, class started and I attended as a white belt and I have to tell ya. I'm so out of shape and practice I would have felt ashamed wearing my old belt (which i can't even find, my gradma lost it after I move out). It will definitely be easier on me and I will feel better myself by starting over. Just my honest opinion and another 2 cents.
Adept
Master Black Belt
My school always allows people to keep their belt levels if they come from another school. It is one reason we are one of the most popular schools in the region, since people who are unhappy with their current school can come to us without having to repeat however many years of training.
With that said, we only allow those students who we feel are competent to grade. You will not be invited to a grading unless you have already demonstrated to us that you can pass. So if you come from another school with vastly different focus than us, or your skills simply arent up to par, then you will remain at your current belt level until you improve enough to pass the grading requirements, at which time you will be invited to grade.
I dont believe subjective things like loyalty to a certain instructor should have any bearing on your belt level, or how far you are allowed to progress.
With that said, we only allow those students who we feel are competent to grade. You will not be invited to a grading unless you have already demonstrated to us that you can pass. So if you come from another school with vastly different focus than us, or your skills simply arent up to par, then you will remain at your current belt level until you improve enough to pass the grading requirements, at which time you will be invited to grade.
I dont believe subjective things like loyalty to a certain instructor should have any bearing on your belt level, or how far you are allowed to progress.
An interesting subject indeed.
In our school, we generally let the new students keep their Taekwondo grade, no matter what association. They can test for the next grade after learning the whole technical stuff required in our school.
As for other styles, new students are allowed to wear their rank together with their previous style uniform (e.g. Karate). If they purchase a TKD uniform, they have to wear white belts. But again, there are two options available to them. They can test for higher grade, provided that they have learned all the curriculum - like Karate 4th Kyu can test for TKD 3rd Kup, but s/he will be asked to demonstrate all the stuff from white belt to 3rd Kup. All techniques, all patterns etc. (during normal grading a student has to perform only several patterns chosen by the examiner). Or... s/he may start over as a white belt and work the way up the ranks.
I do not require any permission from other instructors to accept their former students into my class. If I can get their side of the story, that's fine. My former instructor still considers me Nr. 1 public enemy, and fails to notice that all his students from my generation left him. Loyalty is always a two-way thing, and it's not always the student's fold.
Couple of years ago, I had two boys from Kyokushin Karate coming to my class. I asked them how long did they practice Karate and was really impressed, as Kyokushinkai really has a good reputation here. They came to the Friday's sparring class - I wasn't impressed any longer (our sparring is very similar to Kickboxing so in fact many styles can "fit-in"). They took a hammering from kids training half the time they did. They turned up for the next class, put white belts on and never ever asked about a possibility of accepting their grades. Quite impressive, since one of them was 18 and the other 12 at the time. If I hadn't accept them, I'd have lost two of the most dedicated students I ever had.
I also do not differentiate between people who started in my organisation and those who did not. The best student I have came from another school as a green belt and he's a 2nd Dan now. I sincerely wish him to make his Master grade in the future.
Gizmo
In our school, we generally let the new students keep their Taekwondo grade, no matter what association. They can test for the next grade after learning the whole technical stuff required in our school.
As for other styles, new students are allowed to wear their rank together with their previous style uniform (e.g. Karate). If they purchase a TKD uniform, they have to wear white belts. But again, there are two options available to them. They can test for higher grade, provided that they have learned all the curriculum - like Karate 4th Kyu can test for TKD 3rd Kup, but s/he will be asked to demonstrate all the stuff from white belt to 3rd Kup. All techniques, all patterns etc. (during normal grading a student has to perform only several patterns chosen by the examiner). Or... s/he may start over as a white belt and work the way up the ranks.
I do not require any permission from other instructors to accept their former students into my class. If I can get their side of the story, that's fine. My former instructor still considers me Nr. 1 public enemy, and fails to notice that all his students from my generation left him. Loyalty is always a two-way thing, and it's not always the student's fold.
Couple of years ago, I had two boys from Kyokushin Karate coming to my class. I asked them how long did they practice Karate and was really impressed, as Kyokushinkai really has a good reputation here. They came to the Friday's sparring class - I wasn't impressed any longer (our sparring is very similar to Kickboxing so in fact many styles can "fit-in"). They took a hammering from kids training half the time they did. They turned up for the next class, put white belts on and never ever asked about a possibility of accepting their grades. Quite impressive, since one of them was 18 and the other 12 at the time. If I hadn't accept them, I'd have lost two of the most dedicated students I ever had.
I also do not differentiate between people who started in my organisation and those who did not. The best student I have came from another school as a green belt and he's a 2nd Dan now. I sincerely wish him to make his Master grade in the future.
Gizmo
B
blackbeltedbeauty
Guest
First of all, I'd question where and how long it took him to get his black belt. Even if you are out for awhile, you can still throw a decent kick or punch (I know from experience). My kicks were just as good as ever. Another question is: Is he really a black belt or someone saying he is. If a white belt can kick his butt, I doubt he's a real one. If he were a real one, a short warm up period, maybe about a week, should give him a full martial art recovery period. If not, they are either retarded or fake. :asian:
