G
GouRonin
Guest
Now here is a great thread topic. I mentioned it before in another thread but no one seemingly wanted to discuss it.
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- Thread starter Goldendragon7
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Now here is a great thread topic. I mentioned it before in another thread but no one seemingly wanted to discuss it.
kenpo_cory
Purple Belt
Athos Antoniades is the only martial artist I personally have ever seen post anything regarding training for this sort of thing, and he mentions it only briefly. Check it out and see what you guys think. This is a section of the article he wrote; it's the only place in the article that he really mentions this at all. I posted a link to the article as well so you guys can read the whole thing. This guy teaches a version of Kenpo by the way.
http://www.nkka.freeserve.co.uk/Internalised/irish_Vol7no3.htm
"A subconscious reaction"
Something which I stress in my Kenpo classes, is the fact that fighting is a subconscious reaction. You cannot rely on the conscious thinking part of the brain to see you through a fight as it is too logical and fighting is not a logical process. We therefore train in methods to occupy our conscious mind so that the subconscious can take over.
This is known as the 'no mind' state of mind, or the state of 'doing without doing'. The years of training in our basics teach us mind and body co-ordination. We instinctively become spontaneous masters of adaptability with all our action being both defensive and offensive. The years of solo and two-person training in our techniques, forms, sets and sparring give us the ability to act calmly and spontaneously in a flash when the situation warants it. We will instinctively strike vital targets and Dim Mak points without thinking about it.
At a more advanced level, and certainly not before students have reached brown belt level, I will acquaint them with the 'reptilian brain' which can be thought of as the ultimate 'no mind' state. I have taught about the reptilian brain in the Chinese internal art of Tai Chi Chuan training and have incorporated it into my Kenpo with great success. Kenpo's rapid succession of strikes makes it very adaptable to the reptilian brain.
Humans have three brains inside their heads. The reptilian brain was the first that anything ever had. Reptiles, such as snakes and crocodiles, still only have this brain. Then there is the mammalian brain, which all animals have, and then we, as humans, also have the neo-mammalian or human brain. Humans have all three brains.
The reptilian brain is the survival brain. However, the modern way of life has really made this part of our brain - which modern science has identified as the brain stem - virtually redundant. In order to attain the highest level of martial arts, we must make use of this brain, as it is by nature our survival brain.
By training in both the external and internal arts, we will quite naturally go into this brain in an altercation. By internalising American Kenpo, students will learn to take advantage of this part of their brain. There are certain ways in which we can bring the reptilian brain into action, but this will only be taught to senior students, as it may cause problems if the student has not had an adequate training. Once the reptile brain has come into play, you are in a different world; everything around you seems to move in slow motion.
'No Mind'
http://www.nkka.freeserve.co.uk/Internalised/irish_Vol7no3.htm
"A subconscious reaction"
Something which I stress in my Kenpo classes, is the fact that fighting is a subconscious reaction. You cannot rely on the conscious thinking part of the brain to see you through a fight as it is too logical and fighting is not a logical process. We therefore train in methods to occupy our conscious mind so that the subconscious can take over.
This is known as the 'no mind' state of mind, or the state of 'doing without doing'. The years of training in our basics teach us mind and body co-ordination. We instinctively become spontaneous masters of adaptability with all our action being both defensive and offensive. The years of solo and two-person training in our techniques, forms, sets and sparring give us the ability to act calmly and spontaneously in a flash when the situation warants it. We will instinctively strike vital targets and Dim Mak points without thinking about it.
At a more advanced level, and certainly not before students have reached brown belt level, I will acquaint them with the 'reptilian brain' which can be thought of as the ultimate 'no mind' state. I have taught about the reptilian brain in the Chinese internal art of Tai Chi Chuan training and have incorporated it into my Kenpo with great success. Kenpo's rapid succession of strikes makes it very adaptable to the reptilian brain.
Humans have three brains inside their heads. The reptilian brain was the first that anything ever had. Reptiles, such as snakes and crocodiles, still only have this brain. Then there is the mammalian brain, which all animals have, and then we, as humans, also have the neo-mammalian or human brain. Humans have all three brains.
The reptilian brain is the survival brain. However, the modern way of life has really made this part of our brain - which modern science has identified as the brain stem - virtually redundant. In order to attain the highest level of martial arts, we must make use of this brain, as it is by nature our survival brain.
By training in both the external and internal arts, we will quite naturally go into this brain in an altercation. By internalising American Kenpo, students will learn to take advantage of this part of their brain. There are certain ways in which we can bring the reptilian brain into action, but this will only be taught to senior students, as it may cause problems if the student has not had an adequate training. Once the reptile brain has come into play, you are in a different world; everything around you seems to move in slow motion.
'No Mind'
P
ProfessorKenpo
Guest
Interesting I just posted something similar to this on the LEFT_RIGHT thread.
Have a great Kenpo day
Clyde
OP
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
- Thread Starter
- #204
:asian:
Gou, I didn't reply because you are so often confrontational, sarcastic and not serious. But I'll reply now to this post. This may be the second time you noticed that you and I agree on something. I would email you more often and reply directly to your posts but I think you and I have a different temperment and it is my predilection to avoid trouble that has me avoid you so much. Since you brought it up, I thought I'd address the issue. It may also explain why no one else replied. I was interested in what you said, but I didn't want to get into it with you.
Although I have not followed the link to Athos Antoniades' site, I have been there recently and I was intrigued by it.
I wanted to chime in here and say that I have experienced the slow motion effect myself. I have also read an explanation that may be consistent with Gou and Prof. Kenpo.
I have read (maybe in High School or College because I took a lot of biology classes) that when you are in a Fight or Flight state, the body "races" increasing your overall awareness. I think Adrenalin production increases... and your nervous system actually speeds up both of which combine to make you mentally and physically quicker. You can perceive things faster, you can be stronger and you can move faster. This "feels like" everything else is going slower but that is inaccurate.
I don't know exactly how this works. Maybe Gou and the Prof. will elaborate. I will go look on the web for more info. I don't know if they relate or not, but Mr. Parker Jr. says that Mr. Parker was a Dimensional Thinker and refers people to the movie Searching for Bobby Fisher to see what he means. Apparently, Mr. Parker was usually thinking "12 moves ahead" and this contributed to his speed and effectivenes.
I don't know if being a Dimensional Thinker is related to the Adrenalin Dump phenomenon, but I do know that sometimes when I spar or work with a new person, I can anticipate what they are going to do and just "get there first." Of course to them it seems like I'm going fast or I'm being a Genius. To me it is just that they are going slow and they are being predictable.
I'm guessing that if you get into a situation where you KNOW that you can "take" someone, you may be able to trigger this Adrenalin Dump and use it in your favor. I don't know. I may investigate this.
I do know that I went to a tournament once as a Purple or Blue Belt and had to fight a big guy who had been talking smack all morning about he only fights Black Belts... and I was scared of him. We got matched up for freestyle and during my Adrenalin rush which used to always make me weak and nervous, I was able to utilize and harness that energy to my advantage. It was the first time I was able to do this. It was amazing. Although he knocked me out of the ring during the match, I stayed on him and it ended something like 5 to 4 and he won. I was so proud that I didn't wet my gi, or fold-up or whatever. I will always remember that fight. Perhaps I was onto something there. ?
Great topic.
:asian:
eternalwhitebelt
Green Belt
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GD7
Why no public answer?
eternalwhitebelt
Green Belt
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Gou,
Have you met Vladimir's instructor, Mykial?(sp?)?
Have you met Vladimir's instructor, Mykial?(sp?)?
OP
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
- Thread Starter
- #208
My response was to Kenpo Cory at the top of the page.
:asian:
eternalwhitebelt
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Oh. doesn't anyone sleep around here?
eternalwhitebelt
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I know, I too was curios about your answer to Cory's question.
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Only when they make me
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Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
- Thread Starter
- #212
Ok.........
Never in great detail.... would discuss a little, enough to believe it is real but nothing much further.
No
I suggested a professor in the Psych field.... I also encouraged the theis...... I would be interested.
:asian:
I do have an anecdote about Mr. Parker and chi...
Mr. Duffy was driving in San Antonio with Mr. Parker and Mr. Tony Martinez sometime in the early 70's I believe.
During the drive, Mr. Parker reached to Mr. Martinez in the back seat and "touched" his shoulder only to turn back around and continue talking with Mr. Duffy as he drove. Mr. Martinez just sat in the back very quiet. Later Mr. Parker reached back and rubbed Mr. Martinez' shoulder and asked if he was OK. I think Mr. Martinez may have been a bit stunned when he replied that he was fine.
Sometime after the drive was over and Mr. Duffy and Mr. Martinez were alone again Mr. Duffy asked Mr. Martinez "What was that about with your arm?" Mr. Martinez said "When he first reached back and touched me, I couldn't move my arm. It went numb." I think he also said that he could not even feel it. He said that when Mr. Parker reached back again he regained the feeling almost immediately. It freaked him out.
That is about all I have on this topic.
:asian:
Mr. Duffy was driving in San Antonio with Mr. Parker and Mr. Tony Martinez sometime in the early 70's I believe.
During the drive, Mr. Parker reached to Mr. Martinez in the back seat and "touched" his shoulder only to turn back around and continue talking with Mr. Duffy as he drove. Mr. Martinez just sat in the back very quiet. Later Mr. Parker reached back and rubbed Mr. Martinez' shoulder and asked if he was OK. I think Mr. Martinez may have been a bit stunned when he replied that he was fine.
Sometime after the drive was over and Mr. Duffy and Mr. Martinez were alone again Mr. Duffy asked Mr. Martinez "What was that about with your arm?" Mr. Martinez said "When he first reached back and touched me, I couldn't move my arm. It went numb." I think he also said that he could not even feel it. He said that when Mr. Parker reached back again he regained the feeling almost immediately. It freaked him out.
That is about all I have on this topic.
:asian:
S
Scott Bonner
Guest
I don't know if this person's training works or not, but he doesn't know much about the brain. The brain has 3 sections, but they are not all that clearly delineated (each grew from the one "below" it, after all). The reptilian brain is far from redundant -- it handles little things like heartbeat and breathing. If something has to go, it wouldn't be the reptilian brain. The "higher" brain does not take over or duplicate these functions. Also, the reptilian brain is more than just thebrain stem. It includes the spinal cord and reaches up into the "lower mammillian" brain so that it's hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.
During an altercation, we don't just revert to using the reptilian brain, and indeed we would be more likely to use the "lower mammillian" brain, where, if I recall correctly, the hypothalamus lies. The hypothalamus handles the "four F's of behavior: fight, flight, food, and sex." That's the only part of the brain that might be more active during a fight than other parts, though most of the brain is going to light up as we try to use our eyes, ears, and sense of touch, and use that frontal cortex try to make good decisions. Even the focus on the hypothalamus is misleading, though, as fight or flight, though powerful, is far from the only part our brain plays in an altercation.
Oddly enough, the "no mind" state that Zen practitioners speak of mostly fires up the frontal cortex -- the "highest" part of the brain and furthest from the parts that control physiological survival functions. Essentially, "no mind" isn't a cessasion of thought so much as using thought to give the illusion of not having thought. It takes a lot of concentration to act without concentration.
kenpo_cory
Purple Belt
Oh, I wasn't sure if you were talking to me or not so I didn't respond. Thank you, I will be looking forward to that e-mail.
Dennis,
You have devoted an incredible amount of time and energy to this string. I am really appreciating it.
Talked to Curtis Abernathy and Jeff Schroeder last weekend at Edmund's seminar, and they seemed positive about helping host a seminar with you. If you are still up for this, we may be able to swing it. I talked it up with some of the Houston Guys and they were also interested.
I promise to have questions ... and a gag for CD when you make it down. I know Mr. Duffy's camp is soon and mine is in late September in California. Were you planning anything down this way in the interim?
I will give you a call in the next week or so.
-Michael
You have devoted an incredible amount of time and energy to this string. I am really appreciating it.
Talked to Curtis Abernathy and Jeff Schroeder last weekend at Edmund's seminar, and they seemed positive about helping host a seminar with you. If you are still up for this, we may be able to swing it. I talked it up with some of the Houston Guys and they were also interested.
I promise to have questions ... and a gag for CD when you make it down. I know Mr. Duffy's camp is soon and mine is in late September in California. Were you planning anything down this way in the interim?
I will give you a call in the next week or so.
-Michael
Amen! I edited this thread yesterday to go into my notebook but it still came out to 46 pages! I'm afraid to print it at work!
We are going to need to book the Erwin Center if Mr. C comes down here and we have 5 schools showing up! Is that going to work out?
BTW how does that work? Mr. Parker Jr. had an odd format I thought. 1 mixed class for 4 hours. I loved it, but would Mr. C be doing the same type of thing? I know, I know. Those are the types of problems we all want to have.
... how I (try to) just ignore Doug's questions all together?
(Darn, I couldn't ignore him)
We will work it out Doug. This is a school owner thing and I don't want to talk about other people's business and livlihood on an open forum. I am sure Mr. Duffy would be able to get a little extra private time for Mr. C. with his students, in addition to whatever seminar(s) he does with the rest of us. You cannot help but come out ahead of the game with where you study.
-Michael
(Darn, I couldn't ignore him)
We will work it out Doug. This is a school owner thing and I don't want to talk about other people's business and livlihood on an open forum. I am sure Mr. Duffy would be able to get a little extra private time for Mr. C. with his students, in addition to whatever seminar(s) he does with the rest of us. You cannot help but come out ahead of the game with where you study.
-Michael
Sorry, sir
I wasn't worried about anything, I just thought it was different the way Mr. Parker Jr did his seminar and I was curious. I figured also that with so many people/schools involved that we could amass a crowd like Mr. Abernathy put together.
I wasn't angling for an secrets. I'd email you if I needed something like that.
And I also would plan a day differently for a 3-4 hour seminar than I would for a 1.5 one.
Those were mostly rhetorical questions. Sorry it didn't come across that way.
:asian:
I wasn't worried about anything, I just thought it was different the way Mr. Parker Jr did his seminar and I was curious. I figured also that with so many people/schools involved that we could amass a crowd like Mr. Abernathy put together.
I wasn't angling for an secrets. I'd email you if I needed something like that.
And I also would plan a day differently for a 3-4 hour seminar than I would for a 1.5 one.
Those were mostly rhetorical questions. Sorry it didn't come across that way.
:asian:
I sent ya an email. Ain't no big thing - OK, I have no sense of humor ... STOP IT, I can hear yall laughing now.
:rofl:
-Michael
:rofl:
-Michael
