Purple Belt technique questions

[MJS]

Maybe we should continue to discuss the purple techs., if there're anymore questions the OP had, unless he already left for good, and discuss the pros and cons of internet assistance, in the other thread FC started.

 

[MattJ]

With all due respect, allow people to be insulted or not for themselves. Answer questions, or not for yourself.

I always do.

I answered as I felt appropriate, for myself. You on the other hand answered for someone else, and injected your own personal emotion and interpretations to someone else's questions. It might have been better served if you had waited to see how that person responded, and if you agreed, lend support rather then becoming an unsolicited mouthpiece for a non-existent problem.

Let's review kyoshi's response:

@ Carol and MattJ - Thanks for the replies

@ the rest of you. I know what eventually will be the fall of my kenpo career: the way everyone talks ********, instead of staying on the topic. Im a serious martial artist and serious instructor, i know you can't learn of the internet, but seriously - what the **** is wrong asking questions and debating.

THIS IS AN INTERNET FORUM - right? So i guess i should be allowed to ask Kenpo relevant questions, which i have.
I guess i should be allowed to ask on the internet, which this is.
And if you don't like my questions - don't answar? Simple, right? Hard, yes...?

Im going to Viking Camp in sweden and ofcourse i will debate this with real life instructors and not just "keyboard warriors" - but you know, sometimes it good to hear what others have to say, and how others like to move.

Im out of this kenpo forum
Goodbye

Feel free to explain, in any substansive way, how that response was different from mine. Clearly he had problem with your response. I have no problem with being an 'unsolicited mouthpiece' in the face of unrepentant ego.

 

[Flying Crane]

Let's review kyoshi's response:

Kyoshi asked for advice. He actually got quite a few responses that were in line with what he wanted.

Two of us suggested he should go about this a different way. We did not belittle him. We did not insult him. We just said, hey, there is a better way to get the answers you are looking for.

The fact that two of us made that suggestion was enough to throw Kyoshi into an indignant rage wherein he managed triggered the profanity filters, threw out some sarcasm, and implied that everyone here is nothing but a keyboard warrrior. Then he left the forum, apparently for good.

He got that enraged, over the advice that two people gave him? he asked for advice, and he got it. But not all of it was what he wanted to hear. And this is how angry he got.

that tells me all I need to know about him.

 

[pete]

Well, since i disagree that it is not an instructor you need to ultimately satisfy, but yourself... and, over the years have pondered much from internet threads such as this to challenge, practice and refine... well, here are some thoughts:

Question1: why the emphasis on bracing? bracing limits mobility, while another option may be to follow the force rather than brace against it.

Question2: i've seen families and categories defined various ways, from the nature of the attack to the physical interpretation of your motion. can be a good tool to practice different technique applications, but a bad idea to categorize for the sake of categorization.

Question3: first get familiar with small digit manipulations (chin-na) and feel how the tendons of each finger engage to control the spine... work this with your instructor or training partner until there is understanding and a level of control in the lock being applied, then see what works & doesn't work in the technique to dissolve and counter it.

Question4: review methods of generating power, through stance changes, footwork, shifting weight, and twist/unwinding like a spring. also, this is a weapon defense, so understand where the weapon is and may be going when applying checks.

Question5: all power is generated from the feet. move them purposefully.

Question6: if you cant reach him, he cant reach you... where is the problem?

Question 7: look for the circles, and use them to draw your opponent into your technique.

Question 8: if someone grabs you and doesn't push or pull, its not an attack but perhaps a manly hug, as in 'i love you man'. enjoy.

pete.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Absolutely. However, that'll only happen if we change the technique. For the record, I'm not against making a change, if necessary. I was just commenting on the specific question that the OP asked.

But I do agree with your analogy.

This must be a lineage thing because; I learned the tech the way I described. I'm not sure the throat is the best target on a static long arm attack though.
Sean

 

[Kyoshi]

Thanks for the any different answars.

What i was trying to do with my questions, what not to learn how to do them right, but to learn what you can do, how you can do it, and how YOU guys are doing it.

 

[MattJ]

Two of us suggested he should go about this a different way. We did not belittle him. We did not insult him.

*sound of buzzer*

One of you actually questioned whether he had an instructor or not, which had nothing to do with his questions and was clearly asked to be insulting and condescending. Let's not pretend it was anything else.

The fact that two of us made that suggestion was enough to throw Kyoshi into an indignant rage wherein he managed triggered the profanity filters, threw out some sarcasm, and implied that everyone here is nothing but a keyboard warrrior. Then he left the forum, apparently for good.

Whoa with the revisionism here. One doesn't insult someone and then get mad at them for being upset they got insulted. Kyoshi was insulted *first*, for nothing more than asking some legit questions. Note that I was not the only 'unsolicited mouthpiece' who noticed that one of the responses was clearly insulting. What's even more baffling is that some of the vets not only don't apologize, they defend their bad behavior, which hasn't been my experience here. For the most part, everyone here is good about recognizing if they stepped over the line.

But I suspect the higher in rank one gets, the harder it is to swallow that ego.

 

[MJS]

This must be a lineage thing because; I learned the tech the way I described. I'm not sure the throat is the best target on a static long arm attack though.
Sean

Personally, if I were to grab someone, in the fashion this tech. is designed for, my arm would probably not be locked out straight, but instead bent. I'm assuming the nature of the attack would be the following:

1) to escort someone out, ie: a club, bar, etc.

2) to push them forward.

3) to pull them backward.

4) to turn them into a punch.

IMO, depending on whats happening, that will determine what we should do. I do see the logic in giving some resistance, ie: they push you forward, you resist and push back, then suddenly change thus catching them off balance. However, why play games? I say, go with the motion, and adapt from there.

I think alot of the time, as I said earlier, people get too set in the way the techs. are described, and they feel that they have to do it that way. I disagree. The techs. IMO, are a simple example, to teach 1 possible solution. Its up to each student to think out of the box. Of course, if we notice, if we were to refer to "Big Red" for a moment, we see a basic explaination of what the nature of the attack is. Ex: Squeezing the Peach, rear bear hug, arms pinned. But thats it. But is that what the attack really is? If we were simply to go with that, then a newbie will assume its simply someone coming up behind you, grabbing you and thats it. But in more detail the description could be a bearhug, with the attacker pushing you forward, trying to take you down, etc. So, in the case of the tech. we're discussing now, all it says is a left flank shoulder grab. But really, who just grabs onto someone and stands there?

 

[MJS]

Thanks for the any different answars.

What i was trying to do with my questions, what not to learn how to do them right, but to learn what you can do, how you can do it, and how YOU guys are doing it.

Were your questions answered?

 

[Flying Crane]

*sound of buzzer*

One of you actually questioned whether he had an instructor or not, which had nothing to do with his questions and was clearly asked to be insulting and condescending. Let's not pretend it was anything else.

I really do not believe there was any intended insult in that comment. I cannot speak for Doc, but I simply do not believe he intended insult. I'll agree to disagree on that point.

So as to not derail the thread any further, I won't engage that topic in this thread anymore.

anyone who wishes may take it up in the other thread that I started.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Personally, if I were to grab someone, in the fashion this tech. is designed for, my arm would probably not be locked out straight, but instead bent. I'm assuming the nature of the attack would be the following:

1) to escort someone out, ie: a club, bar, etc.

2) to push them forward.

3) to pull them backward.

4) to turn them into a punch.

IMO, depending on whats happening, that will determine what we should do. I do see the logic in giving some resistance, ie: they push you forward, you resist and push back, then suddenly change thus catching them off balance. However, why play games? I say, go with the motion, and adapt from there.

I think alot of the time, as I said earlier, people get too set in the way the techs. are described, and they feel that they have to do it that way. I disagree. The techs. IMO, are a simple example, to teach 1 possible solution. Its up to each student to think out of the box. Of course, if we notice, if we were to refer to "Big Red" for a moment, we see a basic explaination of what the nature of the attack is. Ex: Squeezing the Peach, rear bear hug, arms pinned. But thats it. But is that what the attack really is? If we were simply to go with that, then a newbie will assume its simply someone coming up behind you, grabbing you and thats it. But in more detail the description could be a bearhug, with the attacker pushing you forward, trying to take you down, etc. So, in the case of the tech. we're discussing now, all it says is a left flank shoulder grab. But really, who just grabs onto someone and stands there?

Why not play games... you resist, he pulls you back and you stop your momentum on his throat.
Sean

 

[MJS]

Why not play games... you resist, he pulls you back and you stop your momentum on his throat.
Sean

Why not just go with the initial force and get the same result? Ex: he pulls you back, you go with it and still stop your momentum on his throat.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Why not just go with the initial force and get the same result? Ex: he pulls you back, you go with it and still stop your momentum on his throat.

Thats an option.
Sean

 

[Brian Jones]

*sound of buzzer*

One of you actually questioned whether he had an instructor or not, which had nothing to do with his questions and was clearly asked to be insulting and condescending. Let's not pretend it was anything else.



Whoa with the revisionism here. One doesn't insult someone and then get mad at them for being upset they got insulted. Kyoshi was insulted *first*, for nothing more than asking some legit questions. Note that I was not the only 'unsolicited mouthpiece' who noticed that one of the responses was clearly insulting. What's even more baffling is that some of the vets not only don't apologize, they defend their bad behavior, which hasn't been my experience here. For the most part, everyone here is good about recognizing if they stepped over the line.

But I suspect the higher in rank one gets, the harder it is to swallow that ego.

Hold on here, so you are blaming everyone but kyoshi? First look closely at his post. He has only been studying Kenpo for a few months. He had a ton of questions, which were not really questions. His tone was... here is what I'm taught, but I want to do it this way. So with that many questions, and because he was new a legitmate question was asked...Do you have an instructor? You should ask him/her. That's a bad statement?
Secondly let's go back to the fact he has only studied Kenpo for a few months and is already knows how to do it better. Whatever happend to the instructor knows best (and don't give me a bunch of malarky about tailoring. That's fine when you are advanced. Not when you start out) Do you get to do this when you learn piano or english? No.
Third the moment he is aksed some question he gets to go off on a rant and stomp off to his room like he's 4? But it's everyone else's fault?
Finally Look at the body of Flying Cran and Doc's posts over the years. When have they been less than respectful? And know I don't know either one of them, although I met Doc at a seminar years ago.
Sheesh

 

[Kyoshi]

MR. Jones, i've new to kenpo yes.. but i have still been training in the martial arts for 14 years - so i know how to feel if a technique feels right or wrong for you...

 

[Chris Parker]

To begin with, Flying Crane, I apologise for continuing this here, but I don't know that Kyoshi will see it in the other thread to be honest.

(This is coming from an outsider to the Kenpo systems, remember).

Kyoshi. I have read through this entire thread, as well as going through your entire posting history, and I really have to say that the issue here is you. My main question would be how old are you?

You have a list of arts, some over a short time only, with it appears Shotokan as your longest studied system (9 years), although you give Kyusho AikiJitsu as your primary art. You also state that you are the "founder" of a concept you call Mushin no shin do (The way to an empty mind? Hmm, your translation is a bit off there. It would be "Way of the mind of no mind", which is just confusing, unless you mean shin to mean new, in which case it is "Way of new of no mind", which is possibly worse), something about a new (?) way to apply a lock? You constantly tell us that you have been training in martial arts for over 14 years, but really what does that mean? 14 systems for a bit under a year each? Or one system for 14 years, and a recent change? Unfortunately I feel it is more the former...

You have a rather demanding way of posting, including demanding threads get back on topic (not a bad idea, but the way you asked was less-than-polite), complaining about people "spamming" your thread, then saying "No one here with anything regarding this topic?" Now, this could be part of the language barrier, but that along with your tantrum here are not going to have people wanting to help you much.

If you come along here, you are of course free to ask anything you want. But remember you are asking people who often have more experience than you do, especially considering who has been answering for you here, so my advice is simple. If you want to ask them the questions, be prepared to hear the answers. And they may not be what you want them to be. If some very senior members of an art I was studying answered my questions of "How do I?" with "Ask your instructor", I would take that as the voice of experience talking, and I recommend you listen to it. For the record, that is advice I seem to give out fairly regularly myself, so I know where they are coming from.

When it comes to your background, 14 years is frankly both not that impressive to quite a few people here, and has little to nothing to do with your Kenpo history, as you have only a few months in this particular art. Part of learning a new art is realising that you will need to let go of your previous training when learning Kenpo, as it is irrelevant. To demonstrate, I have over 22 years of training behind me, including my early years in karate and tae kwon do, and I have nearly no idea what on earth the technical posts here are about. I would have to learn completely from scratch in order to study Kenpo, and you will need to do that too.

So, in essence, recognise that you have been given the best advice some very senior practitioners can give, it's now up to you to be able to take that for what it is. And realise that your 14 years may not actually amount to anything in this field.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hold on here, so you are blaming everyone but kyoshi? First look closely at his post. He has only been studying Kenpo for a few months. He had a ton of questions, which were not really questions. His tone was... here is what I'm taught, but I want to do it this way. So with that many questions, and because he was new a legitmate question was asked...Do you have an instructor? You should ask him/her. That's a bad statement?
Secondly let's go back to the fact he has only studied Kenpo for a few months and is already knows how to do it better. Whatever happend to the instructor knows best (and don't give me a bunch of malarky about tailoring. That's fine when you are advanced. Not when you start out) Do you get to do this when you learn piano or english? No.
Third the moment he is aksed some question he gets to go off on a rant and stomp off to his room like he's 4? But it's everyone else's fault?
Finally Look at the body of Flying Cran and Doc's posts over the years. When have they been less than respectful? And know I don't know either one of them, although I met Doc at a seminar years ago.
Sheesh

On the other hand, telling people to go ask their instructor every time they ask a question sort of defeats the whole purpose of sharing ideas on Martial Talk. And I have seen some less than respectfull posts at one time or another from at least one of the posters in question.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

... And realise that your 14 years may not actually amount to anything in this field.

That's only if the style you trained in doesn't deal with any of the basic principles of motion such as posture, balance, relaxation, speed, etc.
Sean

 

[MattJ]

Hold on here, so you are blaming everyone but kyoshi?

What are you talking about? I have done no such thing.

First look closely at his post. He has only been studying Kenpo for a few months. He had a ton of questions, which were not really questions. His tone was... here is what I'm taught, but I want to do it this way. So with that many questions, and because he was new a legitmate question was asked...Do you have an instructor? You should ask him/her. That's a bad statement?

What do you mean they were not really questions? Would you care to define "question" so the rest of us can understand YOUR definition? I found his questions to be legit and detailed in a way that asking if he had an instructor was condescending and insulting - and I wasn't the only one.

Secondly let's go back to the fact he has only studied Kenpo for a few months and is already knows how to do it better.

He never said anthing about better. He mentioned his preference (and did not specify which phase he was referring to, although I assumed he meant the application phase), and was seeking opinion. Perfectly acceptable use of an internet MA forum.

Whatever happend to the instructor knows best (and don't give me a bunch of malarky about tailoring. That's fine when you are advanced. Not when you start out) Do you get to do this when you learn piano or english? No.

Whatever happened to freedom to ask questions? And if you think tailoring is malarky - at any point - then you and I have very different ideas about what kenpo is, my friend.

Maybe you should read up about what Ed Parker had to say about tailoring and kenpo.

Third the moment he is aksed some question he gets to go off on a rant and stomp off to his room like he's 4? But it's everyone else's fault?
Finally Look at the body of Flying Cran and Doc's posts over the years. When have they been less than respectful? And know I don't know either one of them, although I met Doc at a seminar years ago.
Sheesh

I am only discussing the comments made in this thread. I suggest if you wish to respond to this, carry it over to the "responsibility" thread in the General Talk forum, so as not to keep dragging this one off-topic.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Why not just go with the initial force and get the same result? Ex: he pulls you back, you go with it and still stop your momentum on his throat.

My understanding of this tech is that you are walking along and someone runs up behind and grabs your shoulder to pull you in. The step you take forward is a step you were going to take anyway. Secondly, if you do step forward and it break the opponents posture, you win that game, and you are no longer doing Obscure Sword, but another idea.
Sean