Pride's Price

[jobo]

Yeah, it's not binary. There's a progression of speed. Of course, you knew that.

of course its binary, there are two speeds bands, as fast as you can and slower than that, anything slower than fast, is by defintion SLOW

 

[jobo]

Building the fundamental and techniques is one thing drills are for, granted most drills have a skill progression. For example, if you are practicing sweeps you should be taught the mechanics and moves on how to execute the technique. Second, you go through the motions of the sweep with a non-resisting partner, non-resisting doesn't mean fall to the ground when your leg is nudged, but to only go down when you balance was taken and were legitimately swept. Third, try executing the technique in sparring, sparring obviously is a resisting opponent and you execute it with speed. I have performed numerous sweeps in sparring and learned how to do so with the process stated above.

etc.

there is a whole other subject, of the bias of non resting partners towards actually co operating to make the sweep work

a leg sweep requires enough kinetic energy to kick the leg from under them and tip their balance, it just doesn't work at a slow speed. If the non resisting partner is falling over during a slow,drill, then they are,co operating ie falling over on purpose. If they actually stand their long enough for the slow,sweep to make contact instead of moving out of the way,, then they are co operating

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It may be OK to train slow during the beginner training stage. It's not OK to still train slow during the advance training stage. For some Taiji guys, they train slow when they were 8 years old. They still train slow when they are 80 years old.

Slow still has a use, even as we advance. Professional golfers occasionally swing their club slowly, to try to more accurately feel what they are doing, or to allow themselves to make an adjustment in the swing. Of course, there's a problem with spending too much time on slow.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

of course its binary, there are two speeds bands, as fast as you can and slower than that, anything slower than fast, is by defintion SLOW

Okay, so maybe you don't know it.

Humans can move at a very wide range of speeds. I can deliver a punch very slow, kinda slow, moderately, kinda fast, or really fast. And every point on the continuum between those vague designations.

So no, not binary. But you actually do know that - you're just trying to make me wrong so you can be right.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

there is a whole other subject, of the bias of non resting partners towards actually co operating to make the sweep work

a leg sweep requires enough kinetic energy to kick the leg from under them and tip their balance, it just doesn't work at a slow speed. If the non resisting partner is falling over during a slow,drill, then they are,co operating ie falling over on purpose. If they actually stand their long enough for the slow,sweep to make contact instead of moving out of the way,, then they are co operating

Actually, it does work at a slow speed. If yours doesn't, you don't understand the sweep.

 

[jobo]

You will get out of the drills what you put in. If you go fast you will get speed. If you are precise. You will get precision.

You reasonably need both. So make progression towards both.

yes agree, but then one,( speed) is more important than the other( precision) so you would naturally build speed then look to add precision, rather than the tma way, of spending countless hours building slow motion precision and then expect it to magically speed up when you some one attacks you at full speed, which of course it doesn't as doing it fast or powerfully used different muscle fibres than the one's you have spent hours drilling. Ie the muscle memory you have is the wrong one for the situation

for instance if some one throws a punch at you, full speed, what matters is you move quickly, the precision of that movement, where you put your feet or block is,secondary to the fact that you actually move your feet or block

 

[jobo]

Okay, so maybe you don't know it.

Humans can move at a very wide range of speeds. I can deliver a punch very slow, kinda slow, moderately, kinda fast, or really fast. And every point on the continuum between those vague designations.

So no, not binary. But you actually do know that - you're just trying to make me wrong so you can be right.

the purpose of throwing a punch is to hurt someone, that takes speed, a slow punch is therefore a weaker punch and has less chance of hitting,

of course you can throw increasingly weaker punches. But why would you want to practise that?

you want to practise at your optimum, so if you don't like the only slow and fast thing, let's go for two types of punch, optimum and sub optimum, still binary

 

[jobo]

Actually, it does work at a slow speed. If yours doesn't, you don't understand the sweep.

go on then explain how a sweep that doesn't carry enough kinetic energy to knock them off ballance, can knock them off balance?

 

[JR 137]

the purpose of throwing a punch is to hurt someone, that takes speed, a slow punch is therefore a weaker punch and has less chance of hitting,

of course you can throw increasingly weaker punches. But why would you want to practise that?

you want to practise at your optimum, so if you don't like the only slow and fast thing, let's go for two types of punch, optimum and sub optimum, still binary

What'll make that punch harder isn't nearly the speed as it is effective mass being thrown around. I can make a slower punch just as hard as a faster punch if I put more of my weight behind it.

There's definitely a place for punching slowER (emphasis on the ER in slower). It'll disrupt my opponent's timing. Same way and reason as a baseball pitcher (and probably a cricket pitcher (?)) will vary the speed of their pitches - so the batter doesn't get used to a specific speed and easily time it. That doesn't mean I'll punch in slow motion for that, it just means I'll slow it down just enough to cause my opponent to block too early. If my opponent gets used to seeing every punch at 100 mph, a 90 mph punch will land after he's fully committed to his block/parry/slip. Bruce Lee was the first one I saw call it broken rythym, but I'm sure others probably called it that before him.

If you throw everything you can as fast as you can, your opponent will get their timing down eventually. Hopefully you've ended the fight beforehand.

There's reasons to slow down a bit, even in a genuine SD situation. Rare, but not completely nonexistent.

 

[JR 137]

go on then explain how a sweep that doesn't carry enough kinetic energy to knock them off ballance, can knock them off balance?

What if they're already off balance and don't see your sweep coming? As hard and fast as possible isn't as necessary as well timed and precise. The opponent did 90% of the work for you, and you're taking advantage of it. Not everything has to be muscled. If you HAVE to force it, it's most likely not going to work.

 

[JR 137]

yes agree, but then one,( speed) is more important than the other( precision) so you would naturally build speed then look to add precision, rather than the tma way, of spending countless hours building slow motion precision and then expect it to magically speed up when you some one attacks you at full speed, which of course it doesn't as doing it fast or powerfully used different muscle fibres than the one's you have spent hours drilling. Ie the muscle memory you have is the wrong one for the situation

for instance if some one throws a punch at you, full speed, what matters is you move quickly, the precision of that movement, where you put your feet or block is,secondary to the fact that you actually move your feet or block

What's the point of drawing a pistol and firing it absurdly fast if you're not even close to hitting your target? Learn to hit the target, then learn to do it faster, not learn to draw and pull a trigger as fast as possible then worry about hitting said target. There's no point in drawing a gun and firing off 3 shots in 1.2 seconds if all 3 shots were 10 feet away from the intended target. There's no point in throwing 5 punches in 2 seconds if none of those punches land (except of course you intentionally missed to create another opening that you can actually hit).

 

[Danny T]

Timing.
Timing is more important than speed, unless you don't really know or understand the action then yes, speed is more important. Many sweeps require an off balancing of the opponent first then the sweep is simple. Of course if one doesn't know that then one needs speed and greater force to cause a sweep. So yeah speed would be important to that person...who doesn't know or have the timing to off balance first.

 

[jobo]

What if they're already off balance and don't see your sweep coming? As hard and fast as possible isn't as necessary as well timed and precise. The opponent did 90% of the work for you, and you're taking advantage of it. Not everything has to be muscled. If you HAVE to force it, it's most likely not going to work.

but its a,slow motion drill, where they are,expecting a leg sweep, why would they be a) of balance and b) not expecting it?

 

[jobo]

What's the point of drawing a pistol and firing it absurdly fast if you're not even close to hitting your target? Learn to hit the target, then learn to do it faster, not learn to draw and pull a trigger as fast as possible then worry about hitting said target. There's no point in drawing a gun and firing off 3 shots in 1.2 seconds if all 3 shots were 10 feet away from the intended target. There's no point in throwing 5 punches in 2 seconds if none of those punches land (except of course you intentionally missed to create another opening that you can actually hit).

my point isn't that you should go as fast as possible, its that you should go as fast as you can and,still being,effective as opposed to constant and prolonged slow motion drilling at sub optimal speed.

precision means you can kick at exactly the 3rd rib up, effective means you can kick hard somewhere near where you were,aiming

you gun analogy doesn't really work, but let's say you practise to draw fast AND hit the man, ans then work on refining you accuracy to heart shots, rather than being able to deliver three heart,shots, bit it takes you 30 seconds to get the gun out and,aim it. One is far more use in a life threatning,situation than the other

 

[jobo]

Timing.
Timing is more important than speed, unless you don't really know or understand the action then yes, speed is more important. Many sweeps require an off balancing of the opponent first then the sweep is simple. Of course if one doesn't know that then one needs speed and greater force to cause a sweep. So yeah speed would be important to that person...who doesn't know or have the timing to off balance first.

no timing is the control of speed, but first you need to build speed, that you can then control, slow motion timing is not a lot of use, unless you and the other guy are both in slow motion

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yes agree, but then one,( speed) is more important than the other( precision) so you would naturally build speed then look to add precision, rather than the tma way, of spending countless hours building slow motion precision and then expect it to magically speed up when you some one attacks you at full speed, which of course it doesn't as doing it fast or powerfully used different muscle fibres than the one's you have spent hours drilling. Ie the muscle memory you have is the wrong one for the situation

for instance if some one throws a punch at you, full speed, what matters is you move quickly, the precision of that movement, where you put your feet or block is,secondary to the fact that you actually move your feet or block

That's a strawman of TMA training. TMA training (the ones I've seen, anyway) doesn't "expect it to magically speed up when you some one attacks you at full speed". It starts slow (just like wrestling training does), and speeds up as the person's skill increases. The same is true with punches. If you try to start full-speed defending punches, you get punched a lot. If you start with slower attacks, you build up your skill at it until you can defend full-speed punches.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

the purpose of throwing a punch is to hurt someone, that takes speed, a slow punch is therefore a weaker punch and has less chance of hitting,

of course you can throw increasingly weaker punches. But why would you want to practise that?

you want to practise at your optimum, so if you don't like the only slow and fast thing, let's go for two types of punch, optimum and sub optimum, still binary

So, your premise is to take a brand new person, put them in front of a heavy bag, and say, "Hit it as hard and fast as you can!" Then, try to fix the problems at that speed? Nonsense. They start slower and softer (how slow and soft varies by where their ability is), and add speed and power as they improve. The best training keeps them on the front edge of their skill level, where they fail occasionally.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

go on then explain how a sweep that doesn't carry enough kinetic energy to knock them off ballance, can knock them off balance?

The sweep doesn't knock them off balance. It removes the leg, so they have no support. That requires only a small amount of kinetic energy, which can even be generated with your foot on the ground.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but its a,slow motion drill, where they are,expecting a leg sweep, why would they be a) of balance and b) not expecting it?

Because you move them off-balance, and don't tell them it's coming.

Of course, if you want to talk about drills, those are cooperative, so they won't (shouldn't) be resisting the specific technique.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

my point isn't that you should go as fast as possible, its that you should go as fast as you can and,still being,effective as opposed to constant and prolonged slow motion drilling at sub optimal speed.

That's not the statement you made before. I agree with that.