Pride's Price

[Anarax]

but the point I'm making is the whole co operating partner standing there with their arm out is what's wrong with tma, it has a place for the first few times, then you need a resisting partner so you can build the speed skill to do the techneque real time. If you cant grab their arm say, because they pull it away, then that's good, you know your to slow to ever use that in the real world, if you pull and they don't move your not strong enough.

if i can get my full resting partner on the floor in real time then i know is a sound techneque that i have got the hang off,

Yes, but I said we get to the point that we can execute the techniques in sparring, which is a resisting opponent. Usually when you are on the receiving end of multiple techniques in sparring, sweep, throws, locks, disarms, strikes, that usually proves to people the training method works. However; his pride is obstructing his ability to grow as a Martial Artist

 

[jobo]

It can simply stop their leg from moving and not allowing them to regain their balance.

well that not a,sweep, is it? That's a leg pin

 

[JR 137]

well that not a,sweep, is it? That's a leg pin

Or a trip?

Semantics. I've seen many things called "sweeps."

I knew you'd go there.

 

[pgsmith]

Students are their biggest obstacle when they are more concerned for their pride than training. I've seen this in multiple schools over the years. There are numerous drills that are crucial in developing your skills as a martial artist. Drills are to train muscle memory, improve technique and/or to improve a physical attribute(speed, power, etc). For example; if a student gives maximum resistance in a basic flow drill, they think they are achieving or proving something. A fencing student that only wants to do bouts and not train the basics thus don't improve their skills.

However; when they spar they lack technical expertise because the drills they either don't do or do incorrectly doesn't build the fundamentals. Usually the students are humbled after sparring and start to see the importance of the drills and why they are designed the way they are. However; there are the occasional few that never seem to reach that conclusion. They keep training the same way thinking something will change

Has anyone else seen or experienced this?

I've seen this numerous times. However, I don't see it as pride, I see it as someone not really understanding how to be a good training partner. A large part of being a good martial artist, at least in the traditional martial arts with which I am most familiar, is in learning how to provide enough resistance that your training partner has to properly perform whatever movement you are practicing. Not enough resistance, and the movement doesn't have to be properly performed. Too much resistance, and again, the movement isn't properly performed.

Add to this the fact that the proper level of resistance to whatever is being practiced will vary, depending upon how experienced the one performing the movement is, and how much they have practiced said movement.

It has been my experience that it is the responsibility of the instructor to help their people learn how to be a good training partner. Thus, when I see someone being either overly aggressive or overly compliant during practice, I see it as a failing of the instructor that hasn't properly taught that student what they are supposed to be doing rather than a failing of the student.

 

[jobo]

Or a trip?

Semantics. I've seen many things called "sweeps."

I knew you'd go there.

a sweep has to have some similarity to the action of a broom in the act of sweeping, other wise its not correctly a sweep, despite what people may choose to call it

 

[jobo]

Yes, but I said we get to the point that we can execute the techniques in sparring, which is a resisting opponent. Usually when you are on the receiving end of multiple techniques in sparring, sweep, throws, locks, disarms, strikes, that usually proves to people the training method works. However; his pride is obstructing his ability to grow as a Martial Artist

i don't understand your premise, how is his being resistant as a stooge for the move, hampering his development? It might be said its hampering his partners development, but not his

 

[drop bear]

well that not a,sweep, is it? That's a leg pin

Yeah thanks tez.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've seen this numerous times. However, I don't see it as pride, I see it as someone not really understanding how to be a good training partner. A large part of being a good martial artist, at least in the traditional martial arts with which I am most familiar, is in learning how to provide enough resistance that your training partner has to properly perform whatever movement you are practicing. Not enough resistance, and the movement doesn't have to be properly performed. Too much resistance, and again, the movement isn't properly performed.

Add to this the fact that the proper level of resistance to whatever is being practiced will vary, depending upon how experienced the one performing the movement is, and how much they have practiced said movement.

It has been my experience that it is the responsibility of the instructor to help their people learn how to be a good training partner. Thus, when I see someone being either overly aggressive or overly compliant during practice, I see it as a failing of the instructor that hasn't properly taught that student what they are supposed to be doing rather than a failing of the student.

And the right type of resistance - both the right kind to lead to the technique (so they aren't using the "wrong" technique), and something that's not unrealistic (like someone going entirely rigid in the middle of an "attack").

 

[Gerry Seymour]

a sweep has to have some similarity to the action of a broom in the act of sweeping, other wise its not correctly a sweep, despite what people may choose to call it

Depends whose definition you're using. Words only mean what people agree they mean, and some groups include things in a sweep that you wouldn't and some that I wouldn't. That doesn't make them wrong, as long as their usage is consistent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i don't understand your premise, how is his being resistant as a stooge for the move, hampering his development? It might be said its hampering his partners development, but not his

Receiving a technique (being thrown/locked) is actually one of the ways a student learns how the technique works. Giving improper resistance will cheat him of this learning.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Receiving a technique (being thrown/locked) is actually one of the ways a student learns how the technique works. Giving improper resistance will cheat him of this learning.

Agreed. In order to learn a technique, I have to have it done on me. Otherwise, I just won't learn it. I won't get the placement right, I won't be using my muscles properly, I just won't be doing it right. It's why I know that I could never learn on my own.

 

[jobo]

Receiving a technique (being thrown/locked) is actually one of the ways a student learns how the technique works. Giving improper resistance will cheat him of this learning.

but he is learning that the techneque doesn't work against a resistance, and that speeds his development, as it is then clear that its pointless to learn it

 

[jobo]

Depends whose definition you're using. Words only mean what people agree they mean, and some groups include things in a sweep that you wouldn't and some that I wouldn't. That doesn't make them wrong, as long as their usage is consistent.

if they don't agree with me that makes them wrong, if they don't agree with a decent dictionary that makes them doubly wrong

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agreed. In order to learn a technique, I have to have it done on me. Otherwise, I just won't learn it. I won't get the placement right, I won't be using my muscles properly, I just won't be doing it right. It's why I know that I could never learn on my own.

What I found as a student (and have seen in my own students) is that I didnt' understand the technique properly until I felt it. When I saw it, I misunderstood (more often than not) what was really happening. Then I felt it...."Oh, it's the elbow that's being pushed down!"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but he is learning that the techneque doesn't work against a resistance, and that speeds his development, as it is then clear that its pointless to learn it

Only if he understand how the technique DOES work. It's not speeding his development if all he gets is that the technique doesn't work (which is probably, based on my experience, what he's thinking). You see, you're assuming since it doesn't work on that specific resistance, that "it's pointless to learn". Every technique (all of them - no exceptions) fails under at least one kind of resistance. The real skill is feeling/recognizing the resistance and choosing a technique that works against/with it. Here's a vague example: if a technique is intended to work after a person has been pulled through a step, but they lean back and away (stopping the pull), the technique simply isn't available. But some other technique is, and if they aren't giving that resistance, the original technique is available and will work. So, if the drill is a leg sweep from a pull, inappropriate resistance would lead to the conclusion that a leg sweep is worthless. But in the right circumstances, that same leg sweep is pretty dependable. Under the resistance that defeated that leg sweep version, a pushing version might be the right answer.

That's the problem with resisting a drill. You're not actually testing the technique, since the person doing it only has one option: the drill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

if they don't agree with me that makes them wrong, if they don't agree with a decent dictionary that makes them doubly wrong

So, if they call it a "bob maneuver", you wouldn't object? What if the "sweep" word has a different derivation than the common dictionary usage (which doesn't include a lot of martial arts terms)? Words are functional. Dictionaries don't control definitions - they simply report common general usage (which MA doesn't always fit).

 

[Anarax]

Receiving a technique (being thrown/locked) is actually one of the ways a student learns how the technique works. Giving improper resistance will cheat him of this learning.

Darn you gp, stop taking the words out of my mouth. JK

 

[Anarax]

i don't understand your premise, how is his being resistant as a stooge for the move, hampering his development? It might be said its hampering his partners development, but not his

It's important to both give and receive a technique to learn it's dynamics. I was using the sweep as an example of one of the drills. For example, he doesn't have the technical aspect of techniques down because he speeds up and tries to power through techniques. I was explaining how his pride effects his techniques and learning overall. In my original post I never said "slow" techniques, I was referring to a flow drill. However; sweeps like Osoto Geri do not have to be practiced at full speed to work. When he tries to execute a technique like osoto geri, he never takes my balance, instead he kicks the back of my leg with strength. I'm left standing there on both of my feet just looking at him, he's speed and strength without form accomplishes nothing.

Flow drills can be used to learn to transition from one technique to another, it isn't meant to be a strength contest. He tenses up and uses muscle, thus I can feel when he's about to do a technique and where his energy is going. In sparring he makes the same mistakes he does in drills. It's easy to give maximum resistance in a drill. However; in sparring when you have a live opponent that has an entire repertoire of techniques that have been drilled correctly, it's much more difficult to resist because you don't know what's coming.

I want to stress that we do live grappling and striking training as well, we don't only train with a cooperative partner. We must drill the technique before we try and use it live though

 

[Anarax]

I've seen this numerous times. However, I don't see it as pride, I see it as someone not really understanding how to be a good training partner. A large part of being a good martial artist, at least in the traditional martial arts with which I am most familiar, is in learning how to provide enough resistance that your training partner has to properly perform whatever movement you are practicing. Not enough resistance, and the movement doesn't have to be properly performed. Too much resistance, and again, the movement isn't properly performed.

Add to this the fact that the proper level of resistance to whatever is being practiced will vary, depending upon how experienced the one performing the movement is, and how much they have practiced said movement.

It has been my experience that it is the responsibility of the instructor to help their people learn how to be a good training partner. Thus, when I see someone being either overly aggressive or overly compliant during practice, I see it as a failing of the instructor that hasn't properly taught that student what they are supposed to be doing rather than a failing of the student.

I agree, it's difficult to read as either pride or inexperience. I left out he likes to talk smack in drills, but he never talks smack in sparring though. He's always the first to quit in sparring, he usually needs a water break when he gets moderately hit. He tries to act macho and alpha in class, but he's the opposite when sparring day comes around. He's had previous training, I'm unsure if they instilled this training mentality in him or not. Either way, I hope he sees the light one day so he can be more productive as a Martial Artist and a more respectful human being.

 

[Tarrycat]

I've noticed this quite a lot whenever people are feeling insignificant &/or insecure about doing a specific technique that requires a bit more expertise or experience. Yes, it then definitely limits their potential or their rate of growth in the particular art, but it's also up to them to be proactive about it. Some students will practice the techniques at home, others will lack the discipline or the determination to do so; & so they remain in a stagnant position, & may lose interest completely. It also has a lot to do with the instructor as an individual, & whether or not they are good at breaking down techniques so that less experienced students can comprehend it better.

I find that a teacher should be able to do those things, & encourage all of the students that it takes time; a teacher should be humble enough to try to be compassionate towards students, in the sense that they don't have to do things perfect the first time around.

My Sensei always reminds us that he too used to be in the position we are in now. He breaks techniques down, & he will demonstrate a technique a thousand times if he has to. If he sees someone still struggling, he will resort to tying your hands, elbows, or arms together with a belt (just one example of many), so that you can embody the feeling of what he's looking for & what actually works in the kata.

He's phenomenal.

The energies & the attitudes of students in the dojo also has a major influence on their peers. If they all walk around with inflated egos trying to intimidate others, then it will lead to a feeling of inferiority. Punishment, humiliation, & pressure is NO way to encourage someone.

We don't allow such people in our dojo. We all support & relate to one another, which creates a comfortable & encouraging atmosphere.

It all comes down to competence. The more you practice a technique, the more comfortable & confident you'll be to implement those techniques.

I've mentioned a lot of variables now; each one being VITAL in any martial arts division.

It depends on the individual traits of:

The student,
The teacher, &
The peers.

Remember that a student is the reflection of his/her teacher.