Post Training in Taijiquan

[Devlin76]

Do you do stance keeping (Zhan Zhuang) as part of your regular Taijiquan training? If so, what postures do you use?

 

[Devlin76]

I try to do some kind of standing work everyday. Most of the time I practice stance keeping with Embracing the Cosmos, Playing the Lute, and Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Chen Style from the Chen family trains Zhan Zhaung

Chen Xiaowang

My Sifu (Yang style from Tung Ying Chieh) stands in this as well but also has me standing in just about any other posture from any of the forms. However unlike styles like Xingyiquan and Yiquan that like you to stand in postures for a very long time, my taiji Sifu thinks 10 minutes is good.

 

[mograph]

We can do any pose in a "Zhan Zhuang" way, with some poses being harder than others.

Hey, even standing in line at the bank, looking like a normal person (not doing a "pose"), but relaxed with knees bent and so on, can be Zhan Zhuang.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Zhan Zhuang - use of visualization - Sifu Yao ChengRong

Standing a Qi Question

 

[Devlin76]

I was using Zhan Zhuang in a general way (probably incorrectly) to refer to standing practice and not a specific posture. My Embracing the Cosmos appears to be the same as the Chen Zhan Zhuang.
Stance keeping is still a fairly new aspect of my regular practice, so I am only doing 5 to 10 minutes in each posture most days.

I have never tried standing in line at the bank in a "Zhan Zhuang" way, but that's a good idea

 

[East Winds]

Lam Kam Chuen has an excellent book on the advanced postures of Zhan Zhuang (Da Cheng Chuan) called “Chi Kung – Way of Power”.

I consider Zhan Zhuang to be a vital part of Taijiquan practise and although not a regular part of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan curriculum, Yang Cheng-Fu actually placed great importance on it!!! Here is what he says about “The Preparatory Posture” from the Yang Form. “I hold to my own stillness in order to deal with the other’s movement; thus the inner and the outer are unified, essence and application are integrated. People all too easily neglect this posture and really do not know the method of its practice or its application. It is all right here. One hopes that the student pays primary attention to this” And of course the Preparatory Posture is Wu Chi the simplest of the Zhan Zhuang postures.

As others have rightly said, you can adopt any of the postures from the form and use them as Zhan Zhuang postures, however I consider those will only strengthen muscles and tendons. I think that the traditional Zhan Zhuan postures are the most valuable for the creation of unity and integration.

When I worked (for a short time) with Master Lam, he would have us stand in “Holding the Ball” (hands at chest height) for and hour and upwards. I think 20 minutes EVERY day is the minimum to maximise this most powerful of all Chi Kung exercises.

Very best wishes

 

[mograph]

As others have rightly said, you can adopt any of the postures from the form and use them as Zhan Zhuang postures, however I consider those will only strengthen muscles and tendons. I think that the traditional Zhan Zhuan postures are the most valuable for the creation of unity and integration.

Ah, East Winds, here we must agree to disagree. I believe that the path to unity and integration lies within, in that the internal landscape can be explored and unified regardless of the external posture. Connections and unity can be found in any posture, in my opinion, but certain minor adjustments should be made to ensure optimal physical connection to ensure unity and integration.

Or maybe I should just ask my teacher. I'll get back to you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ah, East Winds, here we must agree to disagree. I believe that the path to unity and integration lies within, in that the internal landscape can be explored and unified regardless of the external posture. Connections and unity can be found in any posture, in my opinion, but certain minor adjustments should be made to ensure optimal physical connection to ensure unity and integration.

Or maybe I should just ask my teacher. I'll get back to you.

First I think we need to define what is meant by Zhan Zhuang, if it is only strictly this then I agree with you, it is not the only posture that helps with unity and integration. Santi Shi, Wuji, Jiang Long Zhuang, Fu Hu Zhuang all come to mind. And any other posture from Taiji can be used in the same way if one stands long enough in any one of them, 10 minutes not really being long enough for that by the way. 10 minutes is more for familiarity with the posture and strength, but I imagine if one stands in Play the Lute (Shou Hui Pi Pa) for 10 minutes a day for 10 years they could get the same results.

But if Zhan Zhuang is defined as standing postures then...

Different postures here

 

[East Winds]

mograph and Xue Sheng,

Yes, perhaps I painted that description with too broad a brush!! It took me a VERY long time to realise what Yang Cheng Fu was getting at. His sentence about "Preparatory Posture" , "It is all right there" is so simple and yet SO profound that the posture encapsulates the whole meaning and essence of Taijiquan!!! He also says about it "Li ding shi" (Stand in stillness).

Incidentally I have now retired from teaching, but my school will continue under the supervision of four of my senior Instructors. I have enjoyed the journey of over 20 years in the Chinese Internal Arts and will of course continue my practise of these arts for myself. I will also continue to contribute to this forum, in my opinion one of the best with the most knowledgeable contriubtors.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

mograph and Xue Sheng,

Yes, perhaps I painted that description with too broad a brush!! It took me a VERY long time to realise what Yang Cheng Fu was getting at. His sentence about "Preparatory Posture" , "It is all right there" is so simple and yet SO profound that the posture encapsulates the whole meaning and essence of Taijiquan!!! He also says about it "Li ding shi" (Stand in stillness).

Agreed

Incidentally I have now retired from teaching, but my school will continue under the supervision of four of my senior Instructors. I have enjoyed the journey of over 20 years in the Chinese Internal Arts and will of course continue my practise of these arts for myself.

Congratulations on your retirement :asian:

 

[Quotheraving]

Ah, East Winds, here we must agree to disagree. I believe that the path to unity and integration lies within, in that the internal landscape can be explored and unified regardless of the external posture. Connections and unity can be found in any posture, in my opinion, but certain minor adjustments should be made to ensure optimal physical connection to ensure unity and integration.

Or maybe I should just ask my teacher. I'll get back to you.

I really don't think that this is true, and here's why...

Unity and connection is a function of the external posture as much as internal. For instance one would find it hard to find good relaxed connection when hunched in what is to all intents and purposes a guantanamo style 'stress posture'.
Yes you can make adjustments to release the internal micro-tensions that are holding you in such an unnatural position but there comes the point when your adjustments have re-arranged you into an entirely different posture.

I am guessing that you are using the terms external posture and internal connection to refer to subjective and objective experience and if that is the case I would have to agree with the general notion that connection is found through internal - subjective study, hence the value of Standing. But for martial purposes it would be impossible to properly ground pressure with one's head clamped between one's knees.

 

[mograph]

Yes you can make adjustments to release the internal micro-tensions that are holding you in such an unnatural position but there comes the point when your adjustments have re-arranged you into an entirely different posture.

Quotheraving, wouldn't it be true that, after making those adjustments, the practitioner would be in the same external posture as seen from an outside observer, but would have changed from one internal posture to another internal posture?

Then, wouldn't the external posture be rendered irrelevant?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am of the opinion that training any type of standing posture be it Zhan, Santa Shi, Ma Bu or simply choosing ward off or Jin Gang Dao Zhui and standing in it correctly for a long enough period of time will train the internal, but after that you should not need to stand in any of them to gain benefit, it should cross over into just about any way you stand or move.

So really, in the long run, how important is the external posture anyway

 

[Quotheraving]

Quotheraving, wouldn't it be true that, after making those adjustments, the practitioner would be in the same external posture as seen from an outside observer, but would have changed from one internal posture to another internal posture?

Then, wouldn't the external posture be rendered irrelevant?

You would be correct except that you spoke of connection being found in any body posture and I was countering that by offering up the extreme example of postures that are so mechanically taxing or disconnected as to be used as a form of torture.
Comfort may seem irrelevant, but were you to try to act martially from such a position it would probably result in dislocations and other forms of bodily damage.
Similarly martial arts particularly Chi Na seeks to cause the opponents posture to become disadvantagous and to exploit that weakness to cause damage.

As I pointed out in my previous post in order to return the body to a mechanically advantageous posture from such a posture it becomes necessary to relax the tensions holding you in that posture, which will cause a large scale - easily observable- change.

The same is true to a lesser degree in approximately correct positions.

A good teacher can see when you are out of alignment and make the adjustments necessary, though the fine adjustments need to be made for oneself as noted.
If this were not true and connection could be found in any bodily position then we would not train martial postures for any reason other than tradition and you could feel free to wave your arms around any old how and call it a martial art.

 

[Quotheraving]

I am of the opinion that training any type of standing posture be it Zhan, Santa Shi, Ma Bu or simply choosing ward off or Jin Gang Dao Zhui and standing in it correctly for a long enough period of time will train the internal, but after that you should not need to stand in any of them to gain benefit, it should cross over into just about any way you stand or move.

So really, in the long run, how important is the external posture anyway

See now I think this is true, which may cause confusion.

Standing teaches you about your own body and it's connections from the inside.

Once you have learned how to keep the body connected and acting as one unit you can find that same wholeness in other postures.

Other connected postures does not however equate to any other posture.

 

[mograph]

If this were not true and connection could be found in any bodily position then we would not train martial postures for any reason other than tradition and you could feel free to wave your arms around any old how and call it a martial art.

I thought that we trained martial postures in order to punch, kick, block, ward off and so on ... in order to fight an opponent. A martial posture in itself is not particularly healthy -- we need to work the basics, find the sensations, get the connection and unity before the martial posture ... not the other way around, right?

Regarding tortuous positions, one man's torture is another man's training, don't you think?

However, I do agree with you -- I was wrong to say "any posture". There are limits to a man's ability to find connection in postures which stress one part of the body more than its complement. For example: if we were to crane the head forward and do the "vulture neck" thing then tilt the head up, tensing the back of the neck, I'd doubt that it would be easy to find a connection without visibly changing the posture. There would be too much compression on the back of the neck. So yes, you're right, I concur. :asian:

Now ... if we were to define the postures in which one can find unity and connection, what would be the defining characteristics of those postures?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Regarding tortuous positions, one man's torture is another man's training, don't you think?

Santi Shi :EG:

Now ... if we were to define the postures in which one can find unity and connection, what would be the defining characteristics of those postures?

That is a hard question since there are postures (in Yiquan ) that are various sitting postures (categorized under Zhan Zhuang) and there are some postures that are lying down as well.

 

[Quotheraving]

I thought that we trained martial postures in order to punch, kick, block, ward off and so on ... in order to fight an opponent. A martial posture in itself is not particularly healthy -- we need to work the basics, find the sensations, get the connection and unity before the martial posture ... not the other way around, right?

When you recieve (block, ward off.) or issue (punch, kick and so on) in an internal art you should do so from a posture that is connected in such a way as to develop or ground the force into the earth.
This is the basic principle underpinning internal martial arts, to do anything else is to rely on external muscular force.

You can come at this goal from two directions.

Training the postures and developing the softness and sensitivity required so that connection can be made and the body can act as a unified whole.

Training the softness and sensitivity so as to develop an awareness of connection and to hold steadfastly onto that when acting.

Either approach is equally valid as both ultimately rely on the same principle in their operation.

The health benefits come as a side effect to developing better physical habits and cultivating a relaxed, connected structure.
A skill I should add that is less something added onto a person than it is the unlearning of decades of habitual tensions which are causing the body unecessary stress.

It also indicates quite clearly that there are postures and ways of holding oneself that are anything but connected and if it weren't for cultivating connection we should most likely spend most of our waking lives contorted in just such postures.

Other than internal martial arts and Qigung there are many other forms of physical therapy designed to help people release the habitual postures that are damaging their bodies and to return the body to it's natural relaxed structure that have nothing to do with martial arts (Alexander therapy, zero balancing e.t.c.) but still there is discrimination between unnatural postures and natural ones.

Regarding tortuous positions, one man's torture is another man's training, don't you think?

Ahh I could see this one coming so I prepared a response in advance.

One persons training in connected 'sung' postures and the muscular aches and burning that brings is completely different from the same person forcing themself into a damaging posture and suffering pain as their ligaments move out of alignment, their bloodflow becomes constricted and their joints suffer damage.

If anyone reading this doesn't know the difference I strongly suggest that you ask a good teacher for advice as to what to do and what not to do before trying to develop awareness of this for yourself as it will prevent you doing yourself an injury while training.

However, I do agree with you -- I was wrong to say "any posture". There are limits to a man's ability to find connection in postures which stress one part of the body more than its complement. For example: if we were to crane the head forward and do the "vulture neck" thing then tilt the head up, tensing the back of the neck, I'd doubt that it would be easy to find a connection without visibly changing the posture. There would be too much compression on the back of the neck. So yes, you're right, I concur. :asian:

Phew! I was getting a bit worried there.

Now ... if we were to define the postures in which one can find unity and connection, what would be the defining characteristics of those postures?

Well that's obvious really, the answer is in the question... Their defining characteristic is that they are all unified and connected. The question then becomes: How do we learn to recognise connection and unity for ourselves?". And the answer to this is "We stand and we observe as we try to become sung"

Best wishes

Dave

 

[Xue Sheng]

Me thinkest we are getting off the point here...

We are all throwing around a lot of words and not really saying anything IMO.

A big part of or one of the point of post training is being missed completely, quieting the mind…. And for the record not all standing postures are created equally nor do they give the same feeling or in some cases result.

And, just as a side, maybe I am missing the point but I believe that when mograph said

Regarding tortuous positions, one man's torture is another man's training, don't you think?

I don’t think that was actually something to “see coming” and that is why I posted the response of Santi Shi. It was more of a tongue and cheek response given by someone who has a lot of experience standing in different postures.

Santi Shi is, to many, torture it is not the same as post training (Zhan Zhuang) that is being discussed, even in feeling (internal and external) while standing in it the 2 are not the same and the feeling when finished is not the same either. In Zhan Zhuang you can get discomfort and even some burning but in Santi Shi you can get pain, real my muscles want to jump out of my body pain, I am going to fall down kind of pain. Not joint pain, it is muscle pain but it hurts one heck of a lot more than Zhan Zhuang. I was going to go into a description of the different feelings based on my experience (aka IMO) but maybe that is the stuff of another post, either way your mileage may vary.

But to the point of standing:

A big part of Zhan Zhuang is to quiet the mind.

cork up your horse’s mind, lock up you monkey heart
--- Di Gouyong

Basically early training in post standing you think of nothing and as time goes you observe the body and things will move and flow and go where they are suppose to.

Other things to think about in post standing: (this is a bit of an over simplification by the way)

Actually the first thing is correct structure and a relaxed body. Not relaxed in the sense of say a pillow but in the sense of no tension. This is that cotton covered steel king of thing and this is sung.

Next is the part I already mentioned about quieting the mind (aka focus) the mind .

These first two, by the way, are pretty dependant on one another but without them you do not get to the 3rd part which is the breathing and then you start the internal, actually you don't start it, it just starts.

My taiji sifu does not put a whole lot of importance on standing postures. He feels training the form is much better. Standing posture he has done and he has shown me but he tends to feel that much more than 10 or 15 minutes is not so good. And 10 or 15 minutes without training the form as well is detrimental and will cause one to become double weighted and that is not a good thing.

Even Xingyiquan where standing is very important to develop the basics of the style also wants you to work on the form to avoid becoming double weighted.