Pa Kua Rules

[East Winds]

Chufeng,

I would never take offence at anything you say. I enjoy our occasional verbal jousts I respect your opinions even although I might not always agree with them.

Yiliquan 1

Yes, I think a lot of people are not doing "real" taiji and I think a lot of it is due to mis-understanding and half understood principles, as well as poor teaching. (Dare I say also the result of "sanitised" Taiji i.e. 24 step!!!!) I do not mean to cause offence and please do not take it that way.

Yang Cheng-fu's "essences" are pivotal to the study of "real" taiji. The point about the essences is that they need to be worked on in sequence. Until you are doing the first one, you cannot possibly be doing the second one and until you are doing the second one you cannot possibly be doing the third one and so on up to numnber ten. That is if you have enough time in your lifetime to reach number ten. They are accumulative. When (perhaps I should say if) you reach number 10, then you are doing "real" taiji.

I enjoy jousting with you Yiliquan guys. It is like testing your opponent in push hands. The occassional hard push just to make sure they are still paying attention and the occassional "giving" just to make sure they are not over extending.

Very best wishes


When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied, "Yes, keep doing it"

 

[Jotaro Joestar]

san antonio

 

[yilisifu]

Quick Sand -
Yes, but what's crucial is that the abdomen contract on inhalation and expand on exhalation.

Most singers tend to use deep abdominal breathing, but it is still "normal" breathing with the abdomen expanding on inhalation and contracting on exhalation.

 

[dav]

where in san antonio? who is your teacher?

 

[Jotaro Joestar]

Shaolin-Do

Sifu Ryan Howard

 

[Matt Stone]

So you study Shaolin-do and Bagua?

 

[Jotaro Joestar]

Bagua is taught in Shaolin-Do

 

[Matt Stone]

And I think we return to the crux of why folks have trouble with Shaolin-Do...

The arts of Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua are extremely complex. I have been working on them (and a very small number of forms in comparison to SD's curriculum) for over 16 years, and I still have quite a way to go...

So how is it you are practicing Bagua within Shaolin-Do? What is the nature of your training? You spoke of 64 rules, but what, specifically do you do to train your Bagua?

Just curious. I could care less whether you were doing Shaolin-Do's Bagua or Shotokan Bagua... I'm just curious how you identify it as being apart from the rest of the 500+ forms you have in your style.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[zen_hydra]

Yiliquan1,

Shaolin-Do is a school. The art taught is Shaolin kung fu in its many forms. Bagua, Xingyi, Taiji, Black Tiger, White Crane, Mantis, etc are all comprised of different exercises, teachings, meditations, and forms that make them styles unto themselves. We are not taught a mish-mash of random techniques, but we are exposed to many different styles. There is a great deal of (for example) Bagua material, and one could spend their life dedicated to developing their skills in this style. At Shaolin-Do you learn a basis in various external kung fu forms to lay down the ground work. This begins to prepare you mentally and physically for what comes later. When one becomes a disciple (at 1st black), then they are finally done with the prep. work and can begin learning the more demanding styles (including the internal styles). Shaolin-Do offers some curriculum outside it's normal teaching structure in the form of seminars. This allows students to be exposed to seldom taught forms, and higher level material (such as Bagua) that may be many years down the road for them otherwise. I hope this answers some of your questions. As always, I am happy to shed some light on peoples misunderstandings.

 

[dav]

jotaro i do some bagua and tai-chi in s.a. tx if you would like to know more just about bagua maybe i can help you just pm me

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by zen_hydra
Yiliquan1,

Shaolin-Do is a school. The art taught is Shaolin kung fu in its many forms. Bagua, Xingyi, Taiji, Black Tiger, White Crane, Mantis, etc.

The main problem with that, though, is that Bagua and Taiji are both Taoist arts, not Buddhist, and Shaolin was a Buddhist temple... Xingyi was primarily (according to the Yueh Fei legend) the art of soldiers, not monks and priests. Whatever.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[SRyuFighter]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
The main problem with that, though, is that Bagua and Taiji are both Taoist arts, not Buddhist, and Shaolin was a Buddhist temple... Xingyi was primarily (according to the Yueh Fei legend) the art of soldiers, not monks and priests. Whatever.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

Hoho slam! That is a fair question that deserves a fair answer Zen?????

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by SRyuFighter
Hoho slam! That is a fair question that deserves a fair answer Zen?????

Not a slam, just one way of looking at the issue...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[zen_hydra]

...and both (Taiji and Xingyi) are arts that at one time or another where taught at the Fukien temple. If you look at the history, the Shaolin temples where often a refuge for ex-soldiers and criminals looking for a santuary. A great many of the Shaolin kung fu arts originated from former soldiers, but where adopted and sometimes refined by the monks. Fair enough answer for you???

 

[zen_hydra]

...also I believe it was the Shaolin temple at Wudong mountain that adopted Taiji as one of it's primary styles. They taught Taiji (an internal style) to their students as one of the first styles they would learn. The Taoist component of these martial arts was not a conflicting factor. The Chinese have always been a people of many beliefs and neither Taoism nor Buddhism really negate each other. In fact, the Taoist principles behind these martial arts work in harmony with Ch'an Buddhism. As always I am happy to be of service.

 

[yilisifu]

I'm not trying to start anything, but....

There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that Xingyi was ever taught at the Fukien Temple, or Taiji either. Taiji has it's roots in Shao-lin as do numerous systems, but the finished product (Taijiquan) was never a part of the Shao-lin regimen.

Xingyi wasn't hardly known at all until the mid 18th century and Taiji was not commonly practiced until close to that time; it was largely restricted to the Chen Village and a few other practicioners.

While it is possible that some renegades lived within the confines of the temple and may have practiced these arts, it's a very long step to state it as fact.

The written histories of Xingyi and Taiji (and their oral histories as handed down by the oldest practicioners of current times) make no mention of their arts being taught at the Shao-lin Temple, either in Hunan or Fukien.

 

[yilisifu]

As a note of correction, there has never been a Shao-lin Temple on Wudong Mountain, which is regarded (also) as the birthplace of various internal Daoist arts as well as Daoist sanctuaries.

No temple of any kind ever called itself Shao-lin and taught Taiji to it's students.

Who has been providing you with this historical material?

 

[SRyuFighter]

Okay so Taoism and Chan Buddhism are similar. Why would that mean that a Taoist Martial Art was taught at a Chan Buddhist Temple. Again if I sound stupid then just tell me so because I know absolutely nothing about CMA.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by SRyuFighter
Okay so Taoism and Chan Buddhism are similar. Why would that mean that a Taoist Martial Art was taught at a Chan Buddhist Temple. Again if I sound stupid then just tell me so because I know absolutely nothing about CMA.

I think that is the point that is being made. The link between Shaolin and Wudang arts is tenuous at best... The fact that some Shaolin exponents and some Wudang exponents may have, at one time or another, known each other and exchanged information, fails to support claims that either art was taught at either establishment.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[zen_hydra]

Yilisifu,

There is unfortunately very little historical evidence about a great many thing pertaining to the Shaolin temples. The documents that have been found are often confusing and seemingly contradictory. I think that it is likely beyond the grasp of most of us lay-historians to be able to sort out all of the facts from the misconceptions. Regardless, whether you feel it is true or not, there are a great many people around the world (including China) that believe that Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua where taught to, and by some of the Shaolin monks. I hope that we can just agree to disagree on this. The truth is, that there are a great many things about many martial arts schools (Chinese or otherwise) that are hard to substantiate. Especially regarding the reliability of histories going back several generations.