Pa Kua Rules

[chufeng]

"If I have spoken falsely of anyone, I humbly apologize,"

A generic apology for a specific insult...whatever

If that's the best you can do, that's the best you can do.

Why, oh, why, did you feel the need to start up with this again?

I am not trying to "start-up" anything...I simply pointed out that you owe YiLiSifu an apology...you responded as above...so I guess that's the end of it...

Your previous post came off so close to being civil

Interesting observation...I'd like you to point out where I've been uncivil in this thread...
oh, you mean the part where I posted excerpts from your posts?
As I said in my "civil" post...sometimes we (I include myself in that "we") eat foot.

Good evening

:asian:
chufeng

 

[chufeng]

Jotoro Joester,

Actually, I started the thread wanting to know how many people knew of the 64 rules to Pa Kua and how many practiced them on a regular basis.

I didn't post (other than my first tongue in cheek comment) on your thread BECAUSE I had nothing to add...no answers for you, sorry...

Then, I saw MY teacher being insulted by someone and I spoke up.

Sorry for the intrusion...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Jotaro Joestar

This question is for everyone who practices Pa Kua/Ba Gua

How many rules are there in the Pa Kua that you practice and/or taught.

We have something like 64, but they are not all enforced.

Perhaps listing the 64 rules could help to clarify whether people are practicing according to them… It may be that many people are doing just that, but referring to the “rules” you speak of in different terms.

Why does your school not enforce all of them?

Originally posted by Zen-Hydra

Shaolin-Do is a school. The art taught is Shaolin kung fu in its many forms. Bagua, Xingyi, Taiji, Black Tiger, White Crane, Mantis, etc are all comprised of different exercises, teachings, meditations, and forms that make them styles unto themselves.

So how many “styles” are you taught? Are you taught the entire style? Please educate those of us who are ignorant of what is taught in Shaolin-Do…

We are not taught a mish-mash of random techniques, but we are exposed to many different styles.

Now you say you are “exposed” to many different styles. What does that mean? Are you learning the entire style as you imply in the first quote fragment above, or are you simply “familiarized” with them?

There is a great deal of (for example) Bagua material, and one could spend their life dedicated to developing their skills in this style.

If there is that much material, why learn the other aspects of the art? Do they all come together, coalescing into one comprehensive art later on down the line? Or is the study of the Three Classics an optional thing, thereby indicating that there is a main Shaolin-Do art that is taught and learned through the more advanced levels...? What if someone doesn't specialize in the Three Classics? What art are they studying then?

At Shaolin-Do you learn a basis in various external kung fu forms to lay down the ground work. This begins to prepare you mentally and physically for what comes later. When one becomes a disciple (at 1st black), then they are finally done with the prep. work and can begin learning the more demanding styles (including the internal styles).

What do you mean by “more demanding styles?” How many styles are offered in a Shaolin-Do school?

Shaolin-Do offers some curriculum outside it's normal teaching structure in the form of seminars. This allows students to be exposed to seldom taught forms, and higher level material (such as Bagua) that may be many years down the road for them otherwise.

So, do I understand you correctly by reading that “higher level material” is being taught to junior students before they are ready for it normally? I’m confused by this...



As far as your problems with me go, after reviewing all of my posts, I’m not apologizing for a thing. I stand my ground, since my posts were not inflammatory at all. I first pointed out that it seemed inconsistent that the commonly held understanding was that SD had 500+ forms (often substantiated by SD or former SD students here). You replied. I pointed out that the Three Classics were not Shaolin in origin. You replied that the arts had been taught at the Fukien Shaolin temple. Then you digressed and began talking about the Shaolin temple at Wudang, which was refuted by my teacher who pointed out there never was a Shaolin temple at Wudangshan. You countered with the caveat that Chinese history, and specifically Chinese martial arts history, is a less than well-documented thing, and you simply wanted to agree to disagree. Then, when we did not comply with your wishes, you got testy and started accusing us of trying to force our “gospel” on you, when up to that point we had only been responding with the information we had. Sorry that you felt we had to either agree with you or agree to disagree. Personally, given that my teacher has been playing with this stuff longer than either you or I have been alive, I tend to gravitate toward his version of the truth. Given that in my own research on the spurious lineage connections to Shaolin that so many schools seem to lay claim to I have found little to support those claims, I find that a simple historical timeline, the likes of which my teacher has supplied, speak more loudly than hidden teachers, secret training, and lost lineages rediscovered…

Perhaps you could tell us how long you have been training, and in what arts. That may help us to appreciate your insight to things. Your profile is rather empty, so it is difficult to gain an understanding of the origin of your perspective.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[arnisador]

Thread also titled "Pa Kua Rules" merged in from the Tai Chi forum.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[tshadowchaser]

Folks I have been watching some of the verble fenceing going on in this thread and am not about to take anyones side but I would like to see a few things clarified.
To make sure everyone know what RULES you are talking about please state what they are. As has been said befor others may practice them but not know them as "rules". This has been asked for befor so I'm only asking what others have aked for.
Lets not worry about the heritage of a system in this thread lets just define what the thread was about then disscuss the diffrences and/or simularities with what others are taught as far as the "rules" are?

 

[yilisifu]

Yes! A while back, I asked about them and wondered if perhaps there had been some confusion with 64 POSTURES rather than "rules." That question still begs an answer. I'm not trying to argue; I just don't understand what is meant by "rules" since, after several decades of Bagua practice, I am not familiar with "64 rules."

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by yilisifu
Yes! A while back, I asked about them and wondered if perhaps there had been some confusion with 64 POSTURES rather than "rules." That question still begs an answer. I'm not trying to argue; I just don't understand what is meant by "rules" since, after several decades of Bagua practice, I am not familiar with "64 rules."

The 64 steps in Bagua are related to the I-Ching which uses 64 pictograms (?).
(These pictograms are supposedly based on the 64 ways a tortise shell cracks when heated.)
At least that is what I was told by Hung Yi Sheng, former Head of Taiwan national Martial Arts Assoc.
I have never heard them called "rules" since they are more like postures/techniques.
I would suggest the person(s) calling them grulesh hasnft been properly introduced to what they really are.

 

[yilisifu]

That's what I suspected he meant.....postures, not "rules."

 

[East Winds]

Yilisifu,

Don't think it has anything at all to do with postures!

Which school of Baguazhang do you follow?

Regards

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied "Yes, keep doing it"

 

[yilisifu]

The Bagua I teach comes from Chang Chaodong (who taught Wang Shujin and my teacher). Chang studied primarily under Cheng Tinghua, but was highly skilled in Xingyi before he took up Bagua.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Earlier I said pictograms but they are actually hexagrams.

Seen here:



http://users.lmi.net/~tlc/iching/

 

[East Winds]

Yilisifu,

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't questioning your lineage, merely asking which "school" your Bagua belonged to, i.e. Pre Heaven or Post Heaven Bagua. I was trying to determine whether your bagua incorporated the 8 mother palms, the 24 Heavenly Gates or the 64 tactics? I suspect that it was the latter that the original poster was refering to as "rules". However as my main discipline is not Bagua, I would bow to your surperior knowledge.

Best wishes

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi my Master replied "Yes, keep doing it"

 

[chufeng]

The eight mother palms is what I learned...

Of course, there is much more to this than "palm shape"

It sounds like someone "codified" the principles and renamed them "rules."
I've got no problem with that...and I think this thread demonstrates the need for an understanding that terminology may be different and also underscores the need for a "langauge dictionary" within this WebSite...

Good training sir,

:asian:
chufeng

 

[yilisifu]

I agree....

 

[Matt Stone]

I think Sun Lu Tang's deliberate confusion is still in evidence...

24... 64... both multiples of 8. Again with the mystic permutations of the magical number 8 from 8 Trigrams Palm.

Whatever.

As far as "rules," I posted the ones I learned from Yilisifu regarding Taijiquan practice. Seems they were the same things being discussed by others, just worded differently. I suspect the same occurrence with our Bagua. Same product, different marketing.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[zen_hydra]

OK, I found my Pakua notes. So, I will list some of the rules that we were taught. Let me know by what name you may have learned them. These are a few with shorter descriptions so I don't have to do too much typing, and they are in no particular order.

Suen Siang: Let the neckbone become naturally straight. In practice do not rise or bend your head. Do not tilt your head from side to side.

Thie Ting: Let the lower part of your chin press inward, while your head remains erect.

Shou Kang: Let your lower bowel muscles press or be sucked inward, never relaxing them.

Lung Sing: Form like a dragon-One of the characteristics of Pakua is the endless walk. Which is wave-like and circular. In the midst of being relaxwd and natural comes the elements of sturdiness.

Hou Shiang: Expression of a monkey-The second characteristic of Pakua is the vision, or stare. In practice whenever you change your step or rotate your body and change your hand position, both of your eyes should always stare at your hands. This is the so-called "hands and eyes follow each other" vision that is anindication of your inner spirit. It must have spirit just like a monkey who is staring at an object when he tries to grab it.

Tang Ni: When your legs step forward, do not raise them too high. Do it like you are dragging them in the mud.

Chie Ping: In stepping, your feet must remain level or flat.

Chang Ao: Your palms must also be hollow.

 

[Matt Stone]

Like I've said before, we do the same thing but refer to it in different ways...

Though, the only "monkey face" I make is when Chufeng hits me...



Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Though, the only "monkey face" I make is when Chufeng hits me...

Actually that's not true...........you do a good "monkey face" after you do a shot of Tequila and suck on the lemon!

 

[Tigertron]

Originally posted by yilisifu
...... The Boxer Rebellion of 1900 put an end to the Ching Dynasty and the rest is pretty well known insofar as history goes.....

I don't know about all the other stuff posted in this thread. But the Boxer Rebellion did NOT put an end to the Ching Dynasty. They were crushed by a coalition forces of western colonial power, ie the Americans, the British, the French, the Russians and a few others. The remnants were rounded up by the Ching court and have their heads sliced off at the "Chop-Chop square". The Ching Dynasty was overthrown by the revolution started by Dr. Sun Yet Shen (sp).

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Actually that's not true...........you do a good "monkey face" after you do a shot of Tequila and suck on the lemon!

You seem to have some moral compulsion to bring up that night repeatedly, don't you...? I have done my best to forget what little of it I remember...

Remember this? "Hey. Hey. Hey. Do I look drunk?"

:rofl:

Can't wait for a redux when I visit. Looking at July - August. A friend is getting married, so there is a double purpose for coming over.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian: