Pa Kua Rules

[Jotaro Joestar]

This question is for everyone who practices Pa Kua/Ba Gua

How many rules are there in the Pa Kua that you practice and/or taught.

We have something like 64, but they are not all enforced.

 

[Jotaro Joestar]

This question is for everyone who practices Pa Kua/Ba Gua

How many rules are there in the Pa Kua that you practice and/or taught.

We have something like 64, but they are not all enforced.

 

[yilisifu]

Rules?

 

[Jotaro Joestar]

Example of Rules are...

Form like a dragon
Expression of a monkey
Sit Like a tiger

and
Positions of your neck, chin, hips, shoulders, etc.

 

[yilisifu]

And you have 64 of them?

 

[chufeng]

I'm sorry...I refuse to do PaKua with the expression of a monkey...unless it's at that one point when walking the circle when one would express jing if one were to take one more step.

chufeng

 

[East Winds]

And presumably you don't bother with the 10 principles of Taiji either !!!!!!

Regards

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi my Master replied "Yes keep doing it"

 

[East Winds]

Jotaro Joestar,

Yes, despite what the Yili guys are saying, "the rules" are vital to the study of Bagua. Clearly they have never heard of the last "rule" ...."The true principles of Bagua are all inside"

"Fire on the top and water on the bottom, the water is heavy and the fire is light" Clearly Chufeng thinks the bottom has another purpose in Bagua:rofl:

Jotaro, keep paying attention to the principles. It is only by doing this that you will discover the REAL essence and art of Bagua.

"When asked about bresathing in Tai Chi my Master replied, "Yes keep doing it"

Best wishes

 

[dav]

say jotaro where do you practice at???????????????????

 

[yilisifu]

Regettably, I have studied Bagua for only a few decades and I was never taught 64 rules. There are a number of "rules", yes...but not 64 of them. I wonder if he is referring to postures?

East Winds - perhaps you could enlighten us and list the 64 rules?

 

[arnisador]

See also the discussion here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7148

 

[Jotaro Joestar]

Rules 1-8 govern the posture

Rules 9-12 relate to the forces in Pa Kua (kuen chan shen li, chie chen siang sen)

Rules 13-16 deal with movement and the ever-changing body postures, foot postures

Rules 17-64 deal with more stepping rules, postures, breathing, chi placement, etc.

Unfortunately, I do not have permission to give the list of rules out. But I hope that this gives you a better understanding of what "rules" that I am asking about.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by East Winds
And presumably you don't bother with the 10 principles of Taiji either !!!!!!

Regards

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi my Master replied "Yes keep doing it"

Depends on which 10 principles you are talking about... I have always had the "10 commandments" of Taiji firmly in mind -

1. Raise Spirit to the Top of the Head: The neck is straight (but not stiff) and the spirit (awareness) is brought to the crown.

2. Yi and Qi Move Together: When the mind moves, the Qi goes with it. Where the mind is directed, Qi follows instantly.

3. Swallow the Chest and Raise the Back: Let the chest relax inward, allow the shoulders to drop naturally and sink the Qi to Dan Tien.

4. Breathe from Dan Tien: Always use reverse breathing.

5. Lower the Shoulders and Bend the Arms: Never arch the chest or straighten the elbows.

6. Relax the Waist, Knees and Hips: Never stiffen the legs or waist. Loosen them so they move easily.

7. From Coccyx to Crown, You Must Stand Straight: But not stiff.

8. Inside and Outside Must Be Balanced: You cannot relax if your mind is tense. Likewise, you cannot be calm if your body is tense or strained.

9. Movement is Continuous: Do not break up the movements of the body.

10. All Movement is Circular: Even when it appears straight.

Is that what you are talking about?

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[mikkel2]

Two questions:

What is the relationship between yi and qi?

What is reverse breathing?

 

[yilisifu]

Alright...I've just never heard of putting them all down as "rules."

"Yi" refers to one's will, imagination, idea, etc. The yi directs the chi. Basically, where the mind (yi) goes, the chi goes.

Reverse breathing is a type of breathing favored by the Daoists and involves contraction of the abdomen on inhalation followed by expansion of the abdomen (actually the whole lower body, including the sides and lower back) and "pressing" down into it on exhalation. This is opposite of what humans normally do and that's why it is called "reverse" breathing.

 

[East Winds]

Yiliquan1

If you study Yang Taiji (as you claim to do), then there are only ten principles or essences, and these were formulated by Yang Cheng-fu himself.

1. Raise the spirit by lifting the head
2. Sinking Shoulders and elbows
3. loosen the chest and round the back

These three essences concern the upper body

4. Loosen the waist/rotate the body
5. Understand the substantial and insubstantial

These two essences concern the lower body

6. Co-ordinating the upper and lower body
7. Linking without breaks
8. Unite internal intent and outside body
9. Use Mind not force
10. Seek stillness in motion and motion instillness.

The first five essences are the physical requirements of the body and happen in sequence. You cannot be doing essence two unless you have essence one in place and essence three cannot happen until essence two is in place and so on.

It is the same with esences 6 - 10. These can only happen when the first five essences are in place. When these are in place essence 6 can happen. 6 brings out 7. Once you have 7 you can create 8. 8 brings out 9 and finally 10.

These are not just some hotch potch sayings cobbled together that happen in any order. They are the real foundations of Taiji structure and form. If you fail to understand even THAT basic fact, you are not doing Taiji and it is no surprise therefore that you believe "real" Taiji no longer exists.

It is exactly the same with the principles (rules) of Bagua and Xingyi. Throw away the "rules" and you throw away the art, or you never really had it in the first place. (like not bothering with walking the circle)!!!!

Best wishes

When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied "Yes keep doing it"

 

[Quick Sand]

Yilisifu,

What you call reverse breathing sounds like what we do when breathing in music. It's really important to breath "from the abdomen" because your breath support controls everything else when singing or playing a wind instrument of any kind. I just thought I'd mention that an easy way to teach it to students is to have they lay down on their backs on the floor. We naturally breath from our stomachs when lying down instead of from the chest which we tend to do when standing.

You probably already knew that but I thought I'd mention it. I've also had teachers put books on my stomach when lying on the floor because then you can really see the expansion on breathing in. It looks silly when people walk in on a class and have no idea what your students are doing on the floor with books on their stomachs though.

I've done so much of this that I tend to breath from my my lower abdomen most of the time now.
:asian:

 

[chufeng]

East Winds,

My comment was tongue in cheek...

Regarding animal shapes...it is less mimicking the movement of the animal as much as trying to capture the spirit of the animal in any given posture...

Sorry if I offended anyone.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Taiji fan]

re the 10 essences......it is surprisingly easy to intellectualise the essences and also surprisingly easy to violate them in taiji practice. no. 5. Understand the substantial and insubstantial for example ..... it is quite common to see double weighteness in beginners and also even in much more experienced pratitioners to not fully understand the consequences of lining up the body in relation to the weight.

6. Co-ordinating the upper and lower body
7. Linking without breaks

these two go right out of the window as soon as the practitioner goes into any 'ball holding' throughout the form just realised that could be misconstrued....I ahve heard many teachers break the form into bits with two main elements, this rediculous idea of holding the ball in transitionary moves and bringing the stepping foot close in and then swinging it back out in a semi circle or just as bad, pausing with the toe on the ground in a transition step.....all big no no's.

Foundations of any arts are very important and the lack of attention to the 'rules' etc is why we have so much rubbish around pretending to be taiji and other CMA's. It doesn't matter if an art is new or old, it needs a solid foundation.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by East Winds
Yiliquan1

If you study Yang Taiji (as you claim to do), then there are only ten principles or essences, and these were formulated by Yang Cheng-fu himself.

1. Raise the spirit by lifting the head
2. Sinking Shoulders and elbows
3. loosen the chest and round the back

These three essences concern the upper body

4. Loosen the waist/rotate the body
5. Understand the substantial and insubstantial

These two essences concern the lower body

6. Co-ordinating the upper and lower body
7. Linking without breaks
8. Unite internal intent and outside body
9. Use Mind not force
10. Seek stillness in motion and motion instillness.

Sounds pretty much like everything I was taught... Slightly different wording, perhaps, but the content remains the same.

These are not just some hotch potch sayings cobbled together that happen in any order. They are the real foundations of Taiji structure and form. If you fail to understand even THAT basic fact, you are not doing Taiji and it is no surprise therefore that you believe "real" Taiji no longer exists.

Perhaps I have failed to communicate my ideas completely... It isn't so much that I believe that "real" Taiji no longer exists, but rather I believe that 99% of the people out there that study Taiji would be hard pressed to do anything with it. They spend all their time practicing forms and push hands, and precious little time smacking the hell out of each other with what they are learning. I believe in the validity of forms practice as well as the use of push hands and other variant exercises to develop sensitivity, but the folks that never, ever mix it up to see whether they can apply what they have learned are just practicing slow motion aerobics...

It is exactly the same with the principles (rules) of Bagua and Xingyi. Throw away the "rules" and you throw away the art, or you never really had it in the first place. (like not bothering with walking the circle)!!!!

I agree with you entirely. I think it is just that we don't term them "rules," and simply make all of the "rules" conditions of correct practice... The "rules" are internalized from the get go, and so are understood as the movement is done... I am having a hard time explaining this fully - suffice it to say that we are following the rules, we just don't term them that way.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian: