Online training

Shidoshi0153

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I already know I am going to catch some flack for this post, but new ideas usually do. I have read several posts and one thing becomes very clear, the idea of online training is generally mocked and berated. The same was true of online college courses when they were first offered. I would like to make a case some positives and advantages that may come from using technology to our benefit.

Training with an instructor in a physical dojo has obvious benefits and by no means am I trying to say online sources are a better means of training. But there are several advantages. First and foremost is the accessibility of these sources. Many people do not have access to a dojo in their area. Many professionals, such as police officers, don't have schedules that allow them to conform to specific class times. Online sources allow these individuals to train on some level, which is better than no training at all.

Online sources also give the practioner a unique view of each of the classes as only video can provide. You can pause, zoom, rewind, play in slo-mo, or simply view the class as many times as you like. This comes in very handy on complicated techniques where you may concentrate on the instructors legs and then again on his upper body and so forth. The video also gives a "record" of the lesson which can be filed away in a library for future reference. This has obvious benefits.

Online sources are also permanent. This is particularly useful to those who change locations often, such as our servicemen and women. It becomes hard to constantly re-learn material or start over when one moves from one dojo to the next.

Student/teacher interaction is also obtainable through the use of forums or message boards. Questions can be asked and answered thoroughly and in a timely manner. If the student is training properly, it will be evident what questions need asked, or what techniques just don't seem to be working correctly. Sending videos to the instructor also allows the instructor to critique and provide needed feedback to the student.

The purpose of this thread is not to deny the benefits of traditional training methods, but instead, to show that technology can be used for benefit and should be taken advantage of. I often think we do not give ourselves enough credit. The common belief is that we must be led down the martial path or spoon fed by the one master that has all the answers. If we consider when the ryu-ha were being formed, however, we discover it was simply a few men experimenting with different ideas, principles, and techniques to see what worked and what did not. We still have this same capacity. With a little guidance and proper training habits, I believe a lot of good and tangible results can be obtained through various online mediums.
 

Logan

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I don't think anyone will disagree that online/video etc materials can compliment training but they can never replace the physical presence of a teacher. I really think it is that simple.

You can mimic movements, pick up tips et al but for alot of people there is a big difference between what you think you are doing and what you actually are doing - the benefit of a teacher is someone who can point out your mistakes and correct them before they become habit.
 

Hawke

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Should we take advantage of new technology that will help us? Of course we should. Online/DVD training is a great way to supplement your learning. Some people are doing online training then going to the dojo once a week/month. They use the online/DVD material to review their training. Having a source 24/7 with a patient instructor(s) who you can just rewind, pause, fast forward is awesome. You will still need a qualified instructor to help guide you.

The instructor's critical eye is needed for refinements. Also to see where you are during the training.

Resistance and live training are needed feedbacks for improvements to see if the technique works. We each need to fine tune the movements for ourselves. A good dojo that teaches self defense or combat will make the scenarios as real as possible to help develop muscle memory. Some dojos never go beyond the compliant attacker to a real live attacker that will resist your attacks.

A good training hall can help you figure out if your blocks are good enough to stop an attacker. Also see if your strikes are strong enough to cause your opponent to back off. Help insure your footwork to be swift and coordinated to set up your opponent(s) and avoid their attacks. (this is all probability, a good dojo helps increase this probablity in your favor).

Online/DVDs are great for supplement training, but cannot replace the critical eye of an instructor or give you the necessary feedback you will need. As you mentioned the convenience of having your source material available 24/7 makes this an easy way to review already known material.

On the other hand if you already have a solid foundation online/DVD is also a wonderful way to discuss theory of principles and deeper concepts related to an art you know or checkout another art that is similar to the ones you have studied.

Depending on what some people want from their martial arts training online/DVD maybe the way to go. Some only take it for exercise like Tae Bo, get new ideas they never thought before, or check out a style they maybe interested in studying more deeply. My concern is the false sense of security some people may have after studying the martial arts.

There's a book you might want to checkout The Book of Martial Power. The author of the book had a real eye opener when he went to college as a high level black belt and discovered that his techniques were inadequate. So he went out to search for common principles to make your MA more efficient.
 

Jade Tigress

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I don't think anyone will disagree that online/video etc materials can compliment training but they can never replace the physical presence of a teacher. I really think it is that simple.

You can mimic movements, pick up tips et al but for alot of people there is a big difference between what you think you are doing and what you actually are doing - the benefit of a teacher is someone who can point out your mistakes and correct them before they become habit.

This is exactly what I was going to say. Stop stealing my replies! lol :p
 

Mr. E

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Student/teacher interaction is also obtainable through the use of forums or message boards. Questions can be asked and answered thoroughly and in a timely manner.

Useless.

If you have questions, you need to ask a teacher in person.

Nothing else will do.

Can you name one person who started out with on-line training or video training that has achieved mastery? Can you point me to one person who I would look at as a master who says that he started out with online/video training and is proof that it is all you need?

The answer of course is no. Video/internet training is at most a supplement to actually training with a real teacher every week. To rely on it soley, or use it at the beggining is a sure way to end up never finding the true path.

If anyone tries to tell you differently, ask yourself if they went through that type of training as they peddle and were later judged to be competent. To this date, I have yet to find even a single person who can pass both conditions.

As I have said, those trying to sell you a video course on a complete martial art system either has a very lmited knowledge of that system's depth or is more concerned with lining his pockets than with helping you gain mastery.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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I don't think anyone will disagree that online/video etc materials can compliment training but they can never replace the physical presence of a teacher. I really think it is that simple.

You can mimic movements, pick up tips et al but for alot of people there is a big difference between what you think you are doing and what you actually are doing - the benefit of a teacher is someone who can point out your mistakes and correct them before they become habit.

I am with Jade in that this is a nice post!
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Online training is good for supplemental training. However to use it as your only source of training with video feedback training (sending a video in) as the only means of correction leaves alot to be desired.
 

MJS

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Video/DVD is a great resource, but as a sole learning tool, I don't hold much faith in it. As far as the online classes go, I look at it this way. If it is not a hands-on class, it may be possible. If its something where you'd need to apply hands on skill, I don't see how that can be done. Same thing with the Martial Arts. Last I knew, it was hands-on. IMHO, you need to train with a live person. Additionally, questions will be easier with a live person. A tape isn't going to answer a question for you. I have never taken an online class, but if there was a question, is it answered right away or do you have to email the Prof. and wait for a reply?

Mike
 
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Shidoshi0153

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All good points from you guys. One thing I must say to clarify, by appropriate training methods I mean training with a live uke with both tai sabaki and randori. Also, just to play devil's advocate, of course I cannot point you to any master who started with online material, simply because online material has not been available until realitively recently. Just as you couldn't point out anyone with an online bachelor's degree 10 years ago. Again, the argument here is not whether online training is better than an instructor, but whether or not it has a place, especially for those with no instructor available.

Also, I wonder how many of those that answered have taken an online course. If you have not, then aren't you answering from an ignorant point of view?
 

MJS

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Again, the argument here is not whether online training is better than an instructor, but whether or not it has a place, especially for those with no instructor available.

Yes, it has a place, just like tapes, books and dvds have their place...to be used as a supplement, if desired.

Also, I wonder how many of those that answered have taken an online course. If you have not, then aren't you answering from an ignorant point of view?

I have not taken an online course. I believe I gave my views on that in my original post.
 

Grenadier

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All good points from you guys. One thing I must say to clarify, by appropriate training methods I mean training with a live uke with both tai sabaki and randori. Also, just to play devil's advocate, of course I cannot point you to any master who started with online material, simply because online material has not been available until realitively recently. Just as you couldn't point out anyone with an online bachelor's degree 10 years ago.

It's no different than learning from a book, and people have gotten degrees via distance learning in the past.

However, there's a big difference between getting a degree in a subject, versus getting knowledge in the martial arts. Learning the martial arts isn't just about memorizing material. Instead, it's highly dependent on many senses, and that body / mind coordination must be developed under close supervision.

Learning mathematics, physics, English literature, etc., can all be done without such senses being employed, which is why the comparison between online (or distance learning) education and martial arts knowledge is too much of an apples / oranges comparison.

Also, I wonder how many of those that answered have taken an online course. If you have not, then aren't you answering from an ignorant point of view?

I have taken online courses, and did quite well, and my knowledge is just as good in that particular subject as someone who attended the class live. However, if that course had any kind of physical interaction, then there's no way I could have been as good, unless I were some sort of supreme talent (which I am not).

To put it this way, I would ask you this:

If you had no football experience, but watched all of the video footage of NFL quarterbacks such as Joe Montana, Tom Brady, and John Elway, and tried to practice on your own, do you honestly believe that you would be able to lead a college football team? The answer is, of course, no, since there is a physical development aspect, along with a mental conditioning aspect, that cannot be overlooked, and that your throwing mechanics, game planning, adjustments, are going to be custom tailored for you.

The martial arts learning is in the same category as the football example that I just listed. Even if I am comparing winesaps to golden delicious apples, at least they're still apples to apples comparisons. :)

Now I'm hungry...
 

Kacey

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You will still need a qualified instructor to help guide you.

The instructor's critical eye is needed for refinements. Also to see where you are during the training.

My concern is the false sense of security some people may have after studying the martial arts.

Hawke, you posted a great response - so I've pulled out the points I think are most important... although I don't disagree with anything you've said.

However, there's a big difference between getting a degree in a subject, versus getting knowledge in the martial arts. Learning the martial arts isn't just about memorizing material. Instead, it's highly dependent on many senses, and that body / mind coordination must be developed under close supervision.

Grenadier, this, and the rest of your post, is what I was first thinking as I read the initial post in this thread.

I don't really have anything to add to the posts already made.
 

Mr. E

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One thing I must say to clarify, by appropriate training methods I mean training with a live uke with both tai sabaki and randori.

That would be a case of the blind leading the blind. You do not need a partner to learn so much as someone with the experience and knowledge to recognize mistakes you are not aware of before you make them a habit. Everyone with a bit of experience in class can remember doing something and thinking that they were doing what the teacher showed, only to have someone correct them. It happens to everyone. And unless there is a teacher there to catch these mistakes you are not even aware of, you will make the mistakes your habits. And they are very difficult to get rid of later on.

I wrote this elsewhere.

There are some self defense forms that can be learned from things like videos. They are crude and not meant to make you some sort of expert. They teach you only enough to get by. Videos by people like Kelly McMann are like this.

Then there are arts that require you to lay a very deep foundation to very demanding standards before you start to build on them. The progress is slow and must be done from the very start under a skilled teacher, but you can take the path a long way to mastery.

I have spent a good portion of my life learning from masters of martial arts in Asia and elsewhere. In any art with some depth, you need a lot of hands on correction at the start of training. Maybe later, after you learn the basics, you can pick up little tricks from videos. But the foundation of a true martial art has to be laid under the care of a master and not a DVD player.
 
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Shidoshi0153

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Wow, some really great responses out there. Let me give you guys a lot of credit, you have managed to disagree, provide very good arguments, and be civil about the whole thing. You guys really are showing true budo and I appreciate that.

Let me play devil's advocate some more. I understand what you are saying about the foundation being built under the supervision of a qualified instructor, but you have not addressed one very important point. If this is indeed the only way to obtain proper foundations, then how did we arrive where we are? How did the first "masters" establish these foundations with no one to guide them? Surely, this training and concepts of the martial arts started somewhere. If the only way to learn them is to be taught in person by an instructor, how where they ever developed originally?
 

Mr. E

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Let me play devil's advocate some more. I understand what you are saying about the foundation being built under the supervision of a qualified instructor, but you have not addressed one very important point. If this is indeed the only way to obtain proper foundations, then how did we arrive where we are? How did the first "masters" establish these foundations with no one to guide them? Surely, this training and concepts of the martial arts started somewhere. If the only way to learn them is to be taught in person by an instructor, how where they ever developed originally?

People went out to battle and died. If they did not die, they tried to pass along what they learned from their experiences to others. They those students went out and either lived or died. If they lived, they added their own experiences to what they were taught.

Do this over several generations and you get a complete martial art.

It is a long process based on painful lessons if you fail. A person learning from a home DVD program is a totally different situation.
 

Flying Crane

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I have read several posts and one thing becomes very clear, the idea of online training is generally mocked and berated. The same was true of online college courses when they were first offered.

These are two very different animals. Online college courses are teaching on an intellectual level. The student still has the same textbook to read and outline, assignments and research and tests, and mediums exist for discussion and feedback and lscture and note-taking. In that sense, it is very similar to a college classroom.

But martial arts instruction is HAND-ON. It cannot be taught as a purely intellectual pursuit. Discussing it without feeling it, and without trying it with a partner over and over under a teacher's direct supervision for immediate corrections, will not adequately pass on the information. At most you might develop the ability to superficially mimick the material, without any depth or actual ability. You cannot develop real skill this way, if it is the only way you train. At most, this could be used as a supplement for actual hands-on training.

Training with an instructor in a physical dojo has obvious benefits and by no means am I trying to say online sources are a better means of training. But there are several advantages. First and foremost is the accessibility of these sources. Many people do not have access to a dojo in their area. Many professionals, such as police officers, don't have schedules that allow them to conform to specific class times. Online sources allow these individuals to train on some level, which is better than no training at all.

In my opinion, if it is inaccessible, tough luck for you. Life isn't fair. Not everyone gets to do everything. You're gonna have to move or find a way to travel to study with a good instructor.

This goes along the same lines as what is seen in many commercial schools that are designed to accomodate the lowest common denominator: that everyone will earn a blackbelt. I think it's nonsense. Not everyone is up for it, not everyone will learn enough and develop skill to a level to merit it. That doesn't mean people cannot get a lot of benefit from training, even if they never earn a black belt. It just means that not everyone will earn the rank. period.

Standards get lower and lower in an attempt to market the martial arts to everyone and their dog, and online/video training contributes to this.

Online sources also give the practioner a unique view of each of the classes as only video can provide. You can pause, zoom, rewind, play in slo-mo, or simply view the class as many times as you like. This comes in very handy on complicated techniques where you may concentrate on the instructors legs and then again on his upper body and so forth. The video also gives a "record" of the lesson which can be filed away in a library for future reference. This has obvious benefits.

No, it doesn't. Being there to interact gives a unique view, where you can see the tech over and over and practice it over and over on a real partner, and have the teacher correct your mistakes immediately. A video of the event could be useful AFTERWARDS to use as a reference, but not in place of being there and working live with the teacher and other students.

Online sources are also permanent. This is particularly useful to those who change locations often, such as our servicemen and women. It becomes hard to constantly re-learn material or start over when one moves from one dojo to the next.

Video and written notes can be used as a reference supplement for later. Yes, this is useful if you are hazy on a tech and cannot immediately contact your teacher or classmates for help. But it cannot replace learning it face-to-face from a good teacher in the first place.

Student/teacher interaction is also obtainable through the use of forums or message boards. Questions can be asked and answered thoroughly and in a timely manner. If the student is training properly, it will be evident what questions need asked, or what techniques just don't seem to be working correctly. Sending videos to the instructor also allows the instructor to critique and provide needed feedback to the student.

Student/teacher interaction needs to be immediate and face-to-face, not later on a discussion forum. By then, the discussion is out of context and it is difficult to relate it back to the actual situation and tech that was taught.

Sending videos for evaluation doesn't enable the teacher to feel the student's technique, to determine if it is good and solid. It is only visual and could be filmed from a bad angle so it cannot even be seen clearly. It's a poor substitute for a good teacher.

The common belief is that we must be led down the martial path or spoon fed by the one master that has all the answers. If we consider when the ryu-ha were being formed, however, we discover it was simply a few men experimenting with different ideas, principles, and techniques to see what worked and what did not. We still have this same capacity. With a little guidance and proper training habits, I believe a lot of good and tangible results can be obtained through various online mediums.

We should not be spoonfed and a good teacher will refuse to do this, but we need guidance and that means hands-on instruction and immediate feedback to develop technique and ability and skill. Cyberspace and video do not provide these needs.

Nothing was created in a vacuum. The ryu-ha were not formed out of nothing. Those men had instruction from good teachers before they ever developed a new ryu-ha. And when they developed their new ideas, you can bet your butt they worked on partners, and they worked hard and had lots of bruises, blood, and broken body parts to show for it. You don't get THAT over video or cyberspace either.

It is a rare individual who could actually flourish thru online or video training alone. And I would bet that rare individual already has a solid background that he developed thru training with a real teacher. And that is exactly the person who has no use whatsoever for online or video training. If he already has a solid background, whatever he gets from video or online training will be inferior to what he already learned from his teacher.
 

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Wow, some really great responses out there. Let me give you guys a lot of credit, you have managed to disagree, provide very good arguments, and be civil about the whole thing. You guys really are showing true budo and I appreciate that.

Let me play devil's advocate some more. I understand what you are saying about the foundation being built under the supervision of a qualified instructor, but you have not addressed one very important point. If this is indeed the only way to obtain proper foundations, then how did we arrive where we are? How did the first "masters" establish these foundations with no one to guide them? Surely, this training and concepts of the martial arts started somewhere. If the only way to learn them is to be taught in person by an instructor, how where they ever developed originally?

I agree very much with Mr. E on this.

People have been training martial methods since man first dropped down from the trees and started walking upright. They developed their methods based on firsthand experience of what worked the last time they had a fight or survived an attack by a hyena or were in a battle. They passed this info on to the next generation, and so forth.

Early martial methods were probably quite crude by today's standards. But each generation stood on the shoulders of the last, and built it higher than before. Now, many millennia later, our marial arts are much more refined, elegant, thorough, and knowledgeable. But without those prior generations we would not have what we have. Nothing was created in a vacuum.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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I agree very much with Mr. E on this.

People have been training martial methods since man first dropped down from the trees and started walking upright. They developed their methods based on firsthand experience of what worked the last time they had a fight or survived an attack by a hyena or were in a battle. They passed this info on to the next generation, and so forth.

Early martial methods were probably quite crude by today's standards. But each generation stood on the shoulders of the last, and built it higher than before. Now, many millennia later, our marial arts are much more refined, elegant, thorough, and knowledgeable. But without those prior generations we would not have what we have. Nothing was created in a vacuum.

Nicely put FlyingCrane and Mr. E it cerainly is hard to go beyond what you two have already written!
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MJS

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Wow, some really great responses out there. Let me give you guys a lot of credit, you have managed to disagree, provide very good arguments, and be civil about the whole thing. You guys really are showing true budo and I appreciate that.

Let me play devil's advocate some more. I understand what you are saying about the foundation being built under the supervision of a qualified instructor, but you have not addressed one very important point. If this is indeed the only way to obtain proper foundations, then how did we arrive where we are? How did the first "masters" establish these foundations with no one to guide them? Surely, this training and concepts of the martial arts started somewhere. If the only way to learn them is to be taught in person by an instructor, how where they ever developed originally?

Mr. E pretty much said it. I wasn't around, but it seems to me that it was trial and error. Take a technique, test it. If it was effective it was kept, if not, then the end result should speak for itself. :)

Mike
 

jks9199

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Others have covered many important points well.

I've taken web-based courses, self-paced/self-taught courses, correspondence courses, home-study courses with active on-line discussions sessions, and other forms of instruction without having a live instructor. It's fine for some types of material, but, even with email or chat based responses, it's lacking. Especially for physical skills; the camera is a one eyed idiot. It misses things that you can see in person, and there's often no substitute for experiencing a martial arts techinique done properly while you're trying to learn it. Or for having knowledgeable instructors assess what you're doing and correcting it. Unlearning something practiced incorrectly is much harder than fixing it before it gets ground in. And physical techniques often don't lend themselves well to textual descriptions.

Based on the original poster's bio on the site linked in his signature... Let me ask a simple question. Would a web-based training program be an adequate substitute for a police academy and subsequent field training, especially for a new rookie with no prior law enforcement experience? Or would it be lacking something essential for most to succeed?
 

qi-tah

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Nothing was created in a vacuum. The ryu-ha were not formed out of nothing. Those men had instruction from good teachers before they ever developed a new ryu-ha. And when they developed their new ideas, you can bet your butt they worked on partners, and they worked hard and had lots of bruises, blood, and broken body parts to show for it. You don't get THAT over video or cyberspace either.

Wouldn't that take interactive technology to the next level! (*sock* ow!
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