Okinawa Karate

exile

To him unconquered.
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
10,665
Reaction score
251
Location
Columbus, Ohio
If you go back further to the Chonji kata of General Choi's Tae Kwon Do you will find a part of the Old Channan Kata. From what I understand Tae Kwon Do is Funakoshi's Shotokan Blended with the Kicks of Taekyon by General Choi in 1945 to form Tae Kwon Do. So my thought is yes Korean Karate. The story I was to is that General Choi was once a house servant for funakoshi while he went to school in Japan. That is how General Choi learned Okinawan Karate!

Hi Al---yes, that could very be---but it's not just that! The Pyung Ahn hyungs that were widely performed in the early Kwans that came together to form TKD under presure from the Korean defense ministry in the mid 1950s are none other than the familar Pinan/Heidan forms from familiar karate styles. The Palgwes and even the Taegeuks are basically rearrangement of familiar Shotokan kata (funny, today I was showing parts of some of the Palgwes to a student of mine, a Shotokan dan practitioner, and she kept saying, `Hey, we have that exact sequence in [such and such kata]').

And as far as taekkyon is concerned, you might want to take a look at Stan Henning's authoritative survey of the state of traditional Korean martial arts in the first issue of the 2000 volume of Journal of Asian Marital Arts, where he discusses the term `taekkyon' and shows that this term is based on erroneous interpretations, in early premodern Korean manuals of physical training and combat methods, of the meaning of certain Chinese ideograms. The correct rendition of the item isn't taekkyon, which seems to have a connection to the modern Korean tae `foot', but takkyon, `push the shoulders', about which Manning says `the term originally may only have been meant to describe a specific... technique to put an opponent off balance.' Takkyon appears to have been effectively suppressed by the Japanese in the 19th c.; taekkyon is an essentially modern discipline with no demonstrable connection to anything in Korean (pre)history. Bear in mind that Manning , a respected martial arts historian with degrees from the University of Hawaii, has based his conclusion on an exhaustive perusal of the full set of documentary records we currently possess on the topic---the full set of combat technique manuals published in Korea along with contemporary historical chronicles such as the Koryo History publishhed in 1451, which contains material going back to the 10th century, and the Encyclopaedia of Illustrated Martial Arts Manuals published by Yi Dok Mu in 1790---itself incorporated extensive material form still earlier Chinese sources, an important resource since apparently a huge proportion of Korean combat techniques have Chinese sources, not surprisingly. Mannings authoritative overview, BTW, concludes with the somewhat bleak assessment that `traditional [Korean] martial args... appear to have been almost entirely abandoned by the beginning of the twentieth century'. He rubs the point in that `the evidence does not allow us to say, as some claim, that the traditional military skill, subak, was directly related to taekwondo or that "taekwondo is a martial art independently developed over twenty centuries ago in Korea", citing a very commonly repeated bit of legendary history from a web site on TKD. His conclusion---supported by what looks to me like the most exhaustive survey of the surviving documentary evidence to date---is that `Taekwondo, for the most part,... appears to be a post-Korean War product, developed primarily from what the Koreans call tangsudo (karate) introduced during the period of Japanese rule.' The tradition Korean martial arts are but a vague memory and taekwondo a symbol born in the cradle of modern Korean nationalism...'

There's no question that something called taekkyon (very likely based, as Manning notes, on a Korean folk etymology of the last century) existed in the early 20th century as a combat system and that some of the Kwan founders practiced it, to one degree or another. But there's no evidence tying it to any ancient indigenous martial art of Korea. The vast weight of the evidence---especially the actual technical content of TKD---makes it clear that TKD is... well, karate as practiced in Korea.
 

exile

To him unconquered.
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
10,665
Reaction score
251
Location
Columbus, Ohio
PS: you could say that the moral of all this historical stuff so far as Terry is concerned is that, if it's correct, then in going from Okinawan karate to TKD, Terry has really only shifted his practice from one karate style to another, kind of like a practitioner of Shurin Ryu who starts studying Goju Ryo---not such a radical change after all---neighboring branches of the same tree, maybe?
 
OP
terryl965

terryl965

<center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
41,259
Reaction score
340
Location
Grand Prairie Texas
PS: you could say that the moral of all this historical stuff so far as Terry is concerned is that, if it's correct, then in going from Okinawan karate to TKD, Terry has really only shifted his practice from one karate style to another, kind of like a practitioner of Shurin Ryu who starts studying Goju Ryo---not such a radical change after all---neighboring branches of the same tree, maybe?

I would agree just a different branch.
Terry
 

exile

To him unconquered.
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
10,665
Reaction score
251
Location
Columbus, Ohio
I would agree just a different branch.
Terry

Terry---glad that you also see it that way! Something like Okinawan to Wing Chun or Kempo, now, that seems really, seriously different---that Wing Chun chain-punching stuff is very pretty when it's done right, but it seems really different from how the karate styles approach close-range combat.

But, as Miles said in a different thread and a different context, it's all good, eh?
 

twendkata71

Black Belt
Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Messages
699
Reaction score
16
Location
Newark,Oh
There are a lot of similarities between Okinawan Goju ryu karate and Wing chun gong fu. The rooted stances, many of the blocking techniques.
 

exile

To him unconquered.
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
10,665
Reaction score
251
Location
Columbus, Ohio
There are a lot of similarities between Okinawan Goju ryu karate and Wing chun gong fu. The rooted stances, many of the blocking techniques.

Hi twendkata71---you have any urls for web clips of Gojo ryu? I've seen a fair number of Wing Chun clips but can't remember any featureing GJ...
 

twendkata71

Black Belt
Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Messages
699
Reaction score
16
Location
Newark,Oh
I will look up the web sites. I can not remeber them off hand. If you go to the Dentokan web site they have video's of Goju ryu kata.
Master Roy Hobbs 10thdan Seido kan shorin ryu, 8th dan Goju ryu certified on Okinawa and Japan.Also 9th dan Jujitsu. demonstrates the kata. He spend close to 20 years on Okinawa and Japan studying karate and jujitsu. He has been studying the martial arts for close to
50 years. One of the few people (non asian) with such high rank certified on Okinawa and Japan.
One of his affiliate web sites has more video clips of him doing kata. If you right click and save target as you can download the kata video's.




Hi twendkata71---you have any urls for web clips of Gojo ryu? I've seen a fair number of Wing Chun clips but can't remember any featureing GJ...
 

twendkata71

Black Belt
Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Messages
699
Reaction score
16
Location
Newark,Oh
If you go to the link page on the Dentokan web site, click on the link for.
Chris Barons kata site at the University of Kent. Then go the the kata page and click on the Dentokan Goju ryu section it has most all of the Goju ryu kata video's.:)
 

exile

To him unconquered.
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
10,665
Reaction score
251
Location
Columbus, Ohio
I will look up the web sites. I can not remeber them off hand. If you go to the Dentokan web site they have video's of Goju ryu kata.

Master Roy Hobbs 10thdan Seido kan shorin ryu, 8th dan Goju ryu certified on Okinawa and Japan.Also 9th dan Jujitsu demonstrates the kata. He spend close to 20 years on Okinawa and Japan studying karate and jujitsu. He has been studying the martial arts for close to
50 years. One of the few people (non asian) with such high rank certified on Okinawa and Japan.

A true grandmaster, in other words! It's great that someone like that is the one demonstrating the GJ katas.

One of his affiliate web sites has more video clips of him doing kata. If you right click and save target as you can download the kata video's.

Terrific, I'll that. Many thanks for the info on Gojo Ryu!
 

rmclain

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Messages
538
Reaction score
17
Location
Arlington, Texas
I would agree just a different branch.
Terry

I'll disagree on this one. While it is true that the early kwans were instructing requirements from Okinawan karate curriculums it is difficult to argue that TKD today is synonymous with Okinawan karate. For the most part this changed in the 1960's.

Today, you can place a group of students training in a classroom wearing the same uniforms, and pick out which students were from TKD and which were from Okinawan karate. There are definite "stylistic" differences. Someone that has studied both arts should know this. Even someone with no martial arts training could probably spot this, but probably wouldn't have a martial arts vocabulary to describe the difference.

R. McLain
 
OP
terryl965

terryl965

<center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
41,259
Reaction score
340
Location
Grand Prairie Texas
I'll disagree on this one. While it is true that the early kwans were instructing requirements from Okinawan karate curriculums it is difficult to argue that TKD today is synonymous with Okinawan karate. For the most part this changed in the 1960's.

Today, you can place a group of students training in a classroom wearing the same uniforms, and pick out which students were from TKD and which were from Okinawan karate. There are definite "stylistic" differences. Someone that has studied both arts should know this. Even someone with no martial arts training could probably spot this, but probably wouldn't have a martial arts vocabulary to describe the difference.

R. McLain


Today yes you would be able to tell the true differences, but years ago they where in fact real ximilar and alot of Masters back in the 60 and 70 called it Korean Karate and they where in fact similar to each other. Maybethe stances was not as wide or the knww bent as much but they where similar with the instructors I had. Master Kim was from Kirea and was trained in Okinawa and Korea maybe that is why he tought is so closely.

Master Mc Lain you are right with today influences between the Tae Guek and the Chon Ji patterns as well with the patterns of Palgwe anyone xould see the differences but back in the early year they where so similar and the way it was tought.

Just my opinion, with that and a dollar you could get a cup of coffee, of course it would be a cheap cup.
 

shoshinkan

Yellow Belt
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
I am Shorin Ryu under Hanashiro Shinyei, a personal student with him for 32 years. I am still a student as well. I also studied with a few other Karate people from Okinawa.

Paul Hart

Yeah ok Paul (or is it Al or Matt?), pull the other one as it has bells on it..................
 

searcher

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
3,317
Reaction score
59
Location
Kansas
Four, almost five, years in GoJu Ryu Karate-Do, Under 8th Dan Sam Price.


Your Brother
John


Not to digress to far back ion the posts, but I have fought with some of Mr. Price's students. They are always a very pleasant group to be around. And they fight pretty good.
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Super Moderator-
 

twendkata71

Black Belt
Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Messages
699
Reaction score
16
Location
Newark,Oh
Yes, be polite and respectful.
I think what is going on here though is that there has been floating around information about Paul Hart and his lineage. There has been serious acusations about weither or not his lineage is legitimate. I have no idea and it is not any of my business.
 

shoshinkan

Yellow Belt
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
I do apologise for any percieved rudeness,

if the mod's would like to contact me I can of course explain why im being frosty with member Paul Hart.
 

twendkata71

Black Belt
Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Messages
699
Reaction score
16
Location
Newark,Oh
Doesn't bother me. I know about his reputation. He has been booted off of several other groups and boards.
 
OP
terryl965

terryl965

<center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
41,259
Reaction score
340
Location
Grand Prairie Texas
I do apologise for any percieved rudeness,

if the mod's would like to contact me I can of course explain why im being frosty with member Paul Hart.

Shoshinkan we understand sometime but we do have to control what we would like to say. Personal feeling need to be in line with all the rules of this board. If you feel you need to ecplain there is a section called Horror stories and you can post it there.
Terry L Stoker
 
OP
terryl965

terryl965

<center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
41,259
Reaction score
340
Location
Grand Prairie Texas
Doesn't bother me. I know about his reputation. He has been booted off of several other groups and boards.

I appreciate your comment and as always you have said it in a tasteful way thanks twendkata
 

Latest Discussions

Top