Northern, Southern, fighting strategy

[Infrazael]

This is to keep Mr. Black Tiger and 7star's conservation going, and also to discuss the differences regarding fighting between Northern and Southern systems.

Now, I totally agree with Jeff about a Southern stylist wanting to close in. I have not seen ANY southern systems that is not a point-blank, close-quarters fighting system.

In Hung Gar, you close and bridge. . . .
In Wing Chun, you close and control their center, and bridge. . .
In Southern Mantis you close, trap, bridge. . .
In Choy Lay Fut you close, bliztkrieg and pummel. . . .

Yeah. Just some Southern styles.

 

[Flying Crane]

In Tibetan White Crane we charge and blitzkreig pummel, or circle and move and blitzkreig pummel, but we dont generally close and grapple or get tied up. I guess you could say it is "hit and run" or else "full commitment and overpower"

 

[arnisador]

How do you mean "bridge"?

 

[clfsean]

In Tibetan White Crane we charge and blitzkreig pummel, or circle and move and blitzkreig pummel, but we dont generally close and grapple or get tied up. I guess you could say it is "hit and run" or else "full commitment and overpower"

That's odd. From what I've seen of Lama/Bak Hok/Hop Ga, you could easily get in tight & just toss & lock people like mad. Maybe it's just my sifu's expression & understanding of CLF along with his Mantis training & some other things (Hop Ga for a short bit too), but we look for the in road to hammer & then once in tight, lock, grapple, break, etc...

Look at your attacking methods & motions see what you can. A good arm bar is only a pao choy away!!

 

[clfsean]

How do you mean "bridge"?

Eh... kinda like "make contact to cheat" I guess would be one way to explain it.

Visualize the bad KF movies where two guys both extend arms out & as soon as they touch, they go. That's a bridge of sorts. There are all sorts of different kinds of bridges & different reasons for bridging, but one that I work on is for feeling/seeking energy or weight movements. Like listening energy with taiji, just quicker (maybe) & meaner (maybe). :whip:

Think about it like this. You throw a punch & I intercept. I don't bash it or anything like that, just intercept it. Once I stick to you, you can't do anything with it without me knowing it. I can use it for a quick inside attack & you'll be pressed to stop it. I can move it inside or outside while working my body around it. As long as I've got contact (bridging), you can't do anything to counter without me feeling a change in pressure on my arm. You can disconnect & move away from my bridge for sure, but that will probably change your range & we may have to start over.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's odd. From what I've seen of Lama/Bak Hok/Hop Ga, you could easily get in tight & just toss & lock people like mad. Maybe it's just my sifu's expression & understanding of CLF along with his Mantis training & some other things (Hop Ga for a short bit too), but we look for the in road to hammer & then once in tight, lock, grapple, break, etc...

Look at your attacking methods & motions see what you can. A good arm bar is only a pao choy away!!

I've seen other people make claims that Bak Hok does all the grappling and stuff, and I think the techniques are there, but the way my Sifu has presented it to me has been much more focused on the "charge 'em 'till they go down" approach. I suspect this may have much to do with personal preferences, either with him, or with those who taught him.

 

[mantis]

Eh... kinda like "make contact to cheat" I guess would be one way to explain it.

Visualize the bad KF movies where two guys both extend arms out & as soon as they touch, they go. That's a bridge of sorts. There are all sorts of different kinds of bridges & different reasons for bridging, but one that I work on is for feeling/seeking energy or weight movements. Like listening energy with taiji, just quicker (maybe) & meaner (maybe). :whip:

Think about it like this. You throw a punch & I intercept. I don't bash it or anything like that, just intercept it. Once I stick to you, you can't do anything with it without me knowing it. I can use it for a quick inside attack & you'll be pressed to stop it. I can move it inside or outside while working my body around it. As long as I've got contact (bridging), you can't do anything to counter without me feeling a change in pressure on my arm. You can disconnect & move away from my bridge for sure, but that will probably change your range & we may have to start over.

so ur basically using ur arms to sniff for energy being omitted by your oponent so you can use this energy in plucking, or throwing the oponent out of balance... isnt that what sticky hands are?

 

[clfsean]

I've seen other people make claims that Bak Hok does all the grappling and stuff, and I think the techniques are there, but the way my Sifu has presented it to me has been much more focused on the "charge 'em 'till they go down" approach. I suspect this may have much to do with personal preferences, either with him, or with those who taught him.

Could be.

I know my Sifu uses the typical CLF "blitz & pound", but once we get inside the opponent's elbows, we start looking for locks, traps, etc...

 

[clfsean]

so ur basically using ur arms to sniff for energy being omitted by your oponent so you can use this energy in plucking, or throwing the oponent out of balance... isnt that what sticky hands are?

In a round about way, yes, but no. Not the same as sticky hands, but not terribly different, but different enough to not be "sticky hands".

 

[7starmantis]

Think about it like this. You throw a punch & I intercept. I don't bash it or anything like that, just intercept it. Once I stick to you, you can't do anything with it without me knowing it. I can use it for a quick inside attack & you'll be pressed to stop it. I can move it inside or outside while working my body around it. As long as I've got contact (bridging), you can't do anything to counter without me feeling a change in pressure on my arm. You can disconnect & move away from my bridge for sure, but that will probably change your range & we may have to start over.

Thats one of the best jobs I've seen for explaining it! Well done. I would like to add to this:

You can disconnect & move away from my bridge for sure, but that will probably change your range & we may have to start over.

This is where (my experience is limited mostly to mantis) we also follow. When in contact you can't do anything without me feeling your pressure, that includes breaking contact. One of the most frustrating things about mantis is the principles of sticking. We do many drills where basically your just trying to break contact with me. Everything is legal including turning and running away. Its like trying to shake off a good strip of duct tape, playing with a highly skilled mantis practitioner. So, if you break contact, your really only pulling me in and actually aiding in my attack. Thats one of the reasons people think mantis is so fast, its really mostly just sticking. You withdraw your arm from an attack and I ride your momentum right back into your chest with a punch....seems like I'm way faster than you, but I just rode your own energy. In essence, you hit yourself with my arm.

7sm

 

[clfsean]

Nice addition & description with the Mantis twist to it!

 

[7starmantis]

In Hung Gar, you close and bridge. . . .
In Wing Chun, you close and control their center, and bridge. . .
In Southern Mantis you close, trap, bridge. . .
In Choy Lay Fut you close, bliztkrieg and pummel. . . .

Yeah. Just some Southern styles.

Interesting. One of my sifu's sihings now teaches Hung Gar close by and he fights very different from us. He doesn't let anyone get in "close". I guess "close" is relative, but what I would refer to as close. He fights almost keeping an open circle in front of him, you can pass his guard. Dot get me wrong, he's a deadly and dangerous fighter, you get arms ripped up, chest torn up, internal bruising and such, but he most certainly does not let you in close. Close to me would be just a couple of inches between our chests or shoulders, etc...

7sm

 

[mantis]

Interesting.

7sm

Sir.. is 'bridges' what we are taught to do in CMA?
i know mr. hung touches my arms until he feels a motion, or any energy in my arms to pluck me.. is that what briges are?

 

[7starmantis]

Sir.. is 'bridges' what we are taught to do in CMA?
i know mr. hung touches my arms until he feels a motion, or any energy in my arms to pluck me.. is that what briges are?

Yes, bridging can be done in many ways, but that is the most commonly taught way to learn.

7sm

 

[arnisador]

Ah, OK...we have something similar in FMA, I think, though with lesser emphasis. Once I have a hand on your arm, it's a "third eye" that senses where you're going. It's used to "manage, monitor, and control" that arm, as they say in Balintawak.

 

[clfsean]

Ah, OK...we have something similar in FMA, I think, though with lesser emphasis. Once I have a hand on your arm, it's a "third eye" that senses where you're going. It's used to "manage, monitor, and control" that arm, as they say in Balintawak.

Right... It's actually common in almost ALL MA's, just some tend to under-emphasize it & others develop it very nicely to a tool that makes a grand addition to an arsenal.

 

[mantis]

i guess it's emphasized in mantis because ur way close to your oponent..
it even feels weird sometimes to be that close to a person!
which probably makes ur oponent more offensive!

 

[brothershaw]

In other arts , particularly weapons arts its tend to thought of as checking, but not really used as soomeone else said as a path to the opponents center or outside for striking.
Bridging is what allows for close range styles like wing chun or southern mantis etc to use all thier techniques in the dark or blindfolded since at a high level you dont need to see anything at all once you have contact, a medium to long range art wont have this ability since they dont emphasize sticking/bridging, very good grapplers should also have a variation of this type of sensetivity since they go from submission and counter to submission and counter based on feel not what they can see thier opponent doing!!