Northern vs Southern

[7starmantis]

What do you guys make of the age old distinction between Northern systems and Southern systems? Do you think the stereotypes are valid and a distinction truly exists? Do you think northern systems really focus more on feet while southern focus on hands? Where did this seperation come from in the first place?

7sm

 

[Dronak]

Since my experience and knowledge are limited, I don't think I can say a whole lot about the distinction. However, it seems like the lower level forms in the northern style I've been studying use more hand strikes than kicks. I think higher level forms start to incorporate more kicks though.

As for why the difference, I think I read something about this somewhere and I seem to recall that there were two things that could have contributed to the difference. How realistic these factors are, I can't be sure, and I could be wrong with these. But IIRC, one point was that the northern Chinese people had a tendency to be taller than the southern Chinese people, at least on average and back in the day. So they used that extra height and leg length to emphasize kicks and leg actions in their martial arts. The other point said something like the southern Chinese people tended to travel by ship/boat more frequently and it was not practical to practice or fight with many kicks, trying to balance on one leg on a boat that's in motion on the water. I'm going by a possibly fuzzy memory here, but I could try looking in my books later. One or more of them might have mentioned the northern/southern difference. I think so, but I'd have to check to be sure and I don't really feel like doing so at the moment.

 

[dmax999]

From my experience it is completely true. I did Wing Chun for a couple years, now doing northern Shaolin type kung-fu. Wing Chun relies almost exclusively on the hands, with a couple low kicks added in. My current Kung-Fu relies heavily on being able to kick high, even if you wouldn't neccessarly do that in a fight.

Northern styles rely on hand movements as well, but you tend to train being able to do the spin kicks, tornado kicks, tiger kicks, and other kicks just as much. So I would say Northern is more a 50-50 puch/kick, while Southern is 80-20 punch/kick.

 

[7starmantis]

Yes, but thats shaolin, thats just one style of northern kung fu. Take 7* mantis for example, we do no spinning, tornado, or real jumping kicks. We use lots of feet but its all low kicks, sweeps, trips, throws, etc. So why do some styles meet the stereotype and others dont, if its truly a correct distinction?

7sm

 

[Mr_Scissors]

I think that China's physical landscape is a big factor here. Northern China has a lot of open areas with vast plains and hills. If one was fighting on an area of open plains and hills it would become practical to utilize flying kicks, to hit downward against an opponent on lower ground. By the same token high standing kicks might be needed against an opponent who was on higher ground.

Southern China has a lot more dense forest areas. Long reaching tools, such as long-range or jumping kicks lack practical application in tight spaces. I believe that this also leads to the southern style's penchant for teaching fighting "on the inside".

I think this environmental difference is also why we see more complex and dynamic throws and joint manipulations coming from the northern sets. Southern Chin-Na sets utilize more short movements, and fewer arcing steps.

The southern landscape also dictates the need for more rapid, shorter steps than one might use in an open area. I think this is why many of the southern stances are tighter or more upright than some of the northern horse or cat stances. A tighter stance allows for rapid steps. Whereas a more open stance grants greater stability, which would be of use when fighting on slanted hills, or when trying to maintin balance and defense against those flying kicks.

I have also heard the idea of the northern chinese being taller, and while that may play some role in all of this, I personally doubt that the height difference is significant enough to warrant such a major change in fighting styles.

Other theories include the need to fight off multiple attackers more often as a northerner because you could be more easily surrounded on northern terrain. Thus the use of bigger movements and longer reaching kicks, in order to be able to rapdily strike multiple assailants. As well as notions about dealing with different weapions used in different areas. I don't know enough about weapons to comment. While I hadn't heard the idea of fighting on boats it does make a certain amount of sense as there are significantly more harbors in southern China.

Well, that's my 2c at any rate. Back to running with scissors. %-}

 

[dmax999]

I was just talking from my experience, never even seen sever star mantis done before. I'm also sure there are southern styles with lots of kicks as well, but I just don't know of them.

Another thing I noticed, my Wing Chun school was about half the square footage of where I am now. Perhaps this had something to do with some of the differences? Northern climate is nicer maybe and training outdoors was done a lot. Sothern climate, or city crowding forced schools into smaller areas? As far as I know the Shaolin temples were somewhat secluded and allowed outside training. I also know a lot of Tai Chi is done outdoors in China. Don't know any specifics about southern school sizes. Perhaps that was a factor when the systems were being developed?

Another one could be fighting in the south was outlawed, so they had to practice in small areas and keep it hidden.

Just a couple theories, but no real answers.

 

[7starmantis]

I think that China's physical landscape is a big factor here. Northern China has a lot of open areas with vast plains and hills. If one was fighting on an area of open plains and hills it would become practical to utilize flying kicks, to hit downward against an opponent on lower ground. By the same token high standing kicks might be needed against an opponent who was on higher ground.

Southern China has a lot more dense forest areas. Long reaching tools, such as long-range or jumping kicks lack practical application in tight spaces. I believe that this also leads to the southern style's penchant for teaching fighting "on the inside".

I think this environmental difference is also why we see more complex and dynamic throws and joint manipulations coming from the northern sets. Southern Chin-Na sets utilize more short movements, and fewer arcing steps.

The southern landscape also dictates the need for more rapid, shorter steps than one might use in an open area. I think this is why many of the southern stances are tighter or more upright than some of the northern horse or cat stances. A tighter stance allows for rapid steps. Whereas a more open stance grants greater stability, which would be of use when fighting on slanted hills, or when trying to maintin balance and defense against those flying kicks.

I have also heard the idea of the northern chinese being taller, and while that may play some role in all of this, I personally doubt that the height difference is significant enough to warrant such a major change in fighting styles.

Other theories include the need to fight off multiple attackers more often as a northerner because you could be more easily surrounded on northern terrain. Thus the use of bigger movements and longer reaching kicks, in order to be able to rapdily strike multiple assailants. As well as notions about dealing with different weapions used in different areas. I don't know enough about weapons to comment. While I hadn't heard the idea of fighting on boats it does make a certain amount of sense as there are significantly more harbors in southern China.

Well, that's my 2c at any rate. Back to running with scissors. %-}

Thats a good post to explain the differences, but I guess a deeper question would be, "Do these differences actually exist"? Do northern styles use flying kicks and high kicks? Not do one or two, but as a whole, do northern styles really actually utilize these things and southern actually use the tighter, higher stances? Most Southern kung fu I've leraned or seen utilized much deeper stances than alot of kung fu.

I guess the next question has to be, are these differences actually true, do they really exist?

7sm

 

[D Dempsey]

I practice 3 northern styles, and all 3 of them have relatively few kicks. One big difference I have seen between northern and southern styles is the size of the system. From what I've seen northern styles tend to be larger and take a longer time to learn, where as the southern styles tend to be smaller and require a lot less time to learn. So saying that northern styles have more kicks could be true simply because the curriculum is bigger.

 

[clfsean]

I practice mainly Choy Lee Fut which can be called a Southern Long fist. But I've also done some internal training & some Nothern stuff. The biggest difference between North & South is that with a few exceptions from the North, the Southern styles were designed in form & function to turn a fighter in a short amount of time. No time to waste on "perfecting" certain motions or signature postures or styles. Just a few basic techniques that are drilled repeatedly & then applied relatively short order.

Weapons training in the Southern styles to me also tends to follow the same school of thought. In my branch of CLF, if we do it with a hand, we do it with a weapon almost identically. In the Nothern stuff, it seems we did a hand with method "A" but a weapon with method "B". You couldn't alway necessarily see the same techniques between hand & weapon. So with CLF I learn one set of techniques & then just apply it, depending on armed or unarmed, the same way. I can't say that 100% for the Northern stuff.

In a nutshell IMHO ... Southern == ease of use, portability & practicality.

 

[Mr_Scissors]

First allow me to say that I fully believe that observing is not the same as doing.

I have practiced the Wu Hao/Yuxian version of Taiji as well as Wing Tsun both of which are southern. I have limited practice in Hsing-i (southern version) and Chen taiji (northern version). And I have rudimentary hands-on knowledge (3-5 sessions) of northern versions of Tiger (Fu-chiao-Pai) Leopard (Pao-Pat-Mei) and Crane (Bok-pai).

I have observed on multiple occasions the practice or teaching of Northern Snake style, northern and southern mantis styles and northern eagle claw, Hung-gar, and northern Wu-shu.

Based on my own experience with those arts, which is by no means authoratative, I came up with that theory.

Most of the northern styles I have seen in action tend to use wider stances and higher kicks. Many of the northern grappling techniques use wider arcing steps to create more dynamic throws than the southern styles, similar to the tenkan-step based techniques of Aikido. I have noticed also a lack of infighting maneuvers among the northern styles.

That said, I'm not primarily a CMA paractitioner. And the question remains, "Do these differences exist"? I would definitely love to hear from more people on this subject! There are hundreds of Chinese arts and I have only experienced a small amount of them. :asian: :idunno: :asian:

7*Mantis,
Aside from the Mantis style, which from what I've seen uses a lower stance than many other arts, what southern styles are you familiar with that use broader stances and/or higher kicks than their northern counterparts?

CLFSean,
Great point about the shear numbers of techniques and the idea of creating better fighters more quickly.

All,
Do you find that CLFSean's idea is true for a broad range of styles, or only a select few?

Great conversation so far.

 

[7starmantis]

I have noticed also a lack of infighting maneuvers among the northern styles.

7*Mantis,
Aside from the Mantis style, which from what I've seen uses a lower stance than many other arts, what southern styles are you familiar with that use broader stances and/or higher kicks than their northern counterparts?

First, let me say thank you for your input and being willing to answer and ask questions. We need more like you here in the CMA section and MT as a whole. Great discussion so far!

My beliefs dont come so much from knowledge of southern arts that contradict the theory, but northern arts that contradict it. In 7* mantis (what I study) there is almost exclusively only infighting manuvers or clsoe range techniques. While there are longer range techniques, the majority are extremely close range. Thats one of the things that doesn't fit the northern theory. Also, we do no high or flying kicks, another deviation from the theory. We do use pretty wide stances, but our throws and takedowns are from very close range as well.

My southern experience comes from Hung Gar and a dragon style I studied as a kid (which I remember little about). In the hung gar I studied, the stances were as wide if not wider than my 7* stances. It could be just that teacher however. Both hung gar and mantis I've done use low kicks. Now Wah Lum uses higher kicks, but very low stances.

Do you find that CLFSean's idea is true for a broad range of styles, or only a select few?

I think its pretty acurate across a wide range of styles as far as containing alot more "cirriculum". Althought, alot of fighting principles are shared from southern to northern styles, so the differences aren't extremely seperating.

7sm

 

[Mr_Scissors]

Well, this is very interesting. From what I've read, which again is nothing compared to actual practice, I thought that Seven-Star's origin was southern. Apparently I was misinformed/mistaken.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on what you know about your style's history and origin? Perhaps I am oversimplifying in thinking that there was only one "main" version.

However, mantis may be a singular exception in many cases. The famed "64 traps of mantis" are, after all, trapping and therefore infighting by necessity.

The only northern mantis i've seen is something called "plum flower mantis" and it did feature some aesthetically gorgeous flying kicks, butterfly kicks and such like. as well as the usual signature trapping.

Tell me more! Oh and yes i'm always up for a little Q&A.

 

[7starmantis]

Well, this is very interesting. From what I've read, which again is nothing compared to actual practice, I thought that Seven-Star's origin was southern. Apparently I was misinformed/mistaken.

No, 7* mantis is "northern". In fact, most mantis is "northern" including plum flower. Southern mantis is pretty different. Look at it like this, all the "northern" styles come from one original and all claim pretty much the same origin. Southern mantis claims a completely different origin and originator. They are two seperate system which dont really bear all that much resemblance to each other. Thats just what I've found studying and asking questions.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on what you know about your style's history and origin? Perhaps I am oversimplifying in thinking that there was only one "main" version.

I dont really place alot of importance of the origin tales of each style, but 7* claims a person named Wong Long (Wang Lang) studied at shaolin temple and was very accomplished in martial arts, but couldn't beat some of his monk brothers. He was out in a field, saw a fight between a cicada and a mantis, saw the mantis win against the huge size of the other insect. He then captured the mantis, studied its movements, and then added in the footwork of the monkey to create the 7* mantis system. 7* claims all other forms of northern mantis are derived from it. Or that it was the original system created by Wong Long. Wether any or all of this is true is beyond me. It is said that Wong Long included technqiues from 18 other systems to create his mantis system. He then went back and was able to easily defeat his brothers and then taught his mantis style at shaolin. Thats it in a nut shell.

However, mantis may be a singular exception in many cases. The famed "64 traps of mantis" are, after all, trapping and therefore infighting by necessity. [/QUOT]
That may be true. However I think that each style is unique in its own right. There are styles in the norther category that focus more on feet and there are styles that focus more on hands. I think a large scale category of northern or southern is incorrect simply because there are too many styles that break the theory, from each side.

The only northern mantis i've seen is something called "plum flower mantis" and it did feature some aesthetically gorgeous flying kicks, butterfly kicks and such like. as well as the usual signature trapping.

Yes, plum flower does use some higher kicks. There are some butterfly kicks and high kicks in wah lum as well. But then 7* doesn't use them much, niether does 8 step. So I think each style needs to be looked at by itself. Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut are two southern styles that use extensive legs or kicks and have pretty wide stances, then look at xingyiquan and baguazhang. They are two northern styles that have pretty narrow and shorter stances, and use feet very little.

So, does the theory stil stand up against these styles that break the mold?

7sm

 

[D Dempsey]

I'm gonna point out some other exceptions. Look at Xingyi, Taji, Bagua, and Xinyi lihue. All of these focus a lot on more close range techniques, stand up grappeling, and tend to have very high stances with relatively few kicks. Now I have little experience with Shaolin styles so maybe that's where your drawing your information from. All and all I would say the difference are probably superficial and based more on the person doing them than the style its self.
-Dave Dempsey-

 

[Mr_Scissors]

I want to thank you all for shattering my illusions, it's always nice to get a little wake up call. That sounds sarcastic, but I'm being sincere, I certainly don't want to go forward with wrong notions.

My only experience with Hsing-i (xingyi) is with a southern version.

Excellent work all, we've busted a myth!

 

[Darksoul]

-I think that might be one thing about Mantis in general, but certainly with Northern Seven Star Mantis; it looks very jerky. Most kung-fu is very fluid, but 7*PM looks like a puppet master getting his strings pulled violently. However, it works, especially when you consider the footwork of the monkey. Last class had us practicing the monkey hop, a backwards movement to avoid low kicks. We also practiced moving forwards and backwards, shuffeling, so to speak, against our partners. The idea was to mirror eachothers movements to always maintain the same distance from eachother. Reason being, when the mantis practictioner gets in close, you're in trouble, haha! I guess I would be more concerned in which style works best for the individual?

A---)

 

[RHD]

To distinguish between things like Northern and Southern, it helps to step back and look at the big picture. Where do they come from and why?

Northern styles, meaning those developed in the Northern provinces, tend to be older systems, or at least influenced by older systems such as the various "long fist" styles. Southern Styles truly come to life much later during the Qing dynasty when there was civil unrest rooted in the Southern provinces.

My own personal theory is that Southern styles were developed to counter the tactics of Qing military fighting, on guerrila warfare level, and as self defense methods for those who were in opposition to the Qing government. Some of the main differences are in approach.

Southern styles tend to use more triangular footwork and stress closer range fighting. They also make more direct use of grappling skills, and emphsize phsyical toughness with things like forearms and shins over direct "iron skills" training. On a training level, the internal concepts (if you believe in them) are much the same, but played out differently. For example, many Southern systems make extensive use of externally mediated internal power generation, whereas Northern styles from what I've seen, tend to use a softer, less physical approach. Also, with the exception of Northern Mantis and Eagle Claw, there seems to be much more use of animal hand shapes in Southern kung fu styles. In particular, there are more clawing styles, which relates back to the direct use of grappling.

However, these are but generalizations. I think it was mentioned before about Southern suing more hands and Northern, more legs, but I think this isn't true, It's all in the instruction. Southern uses plenty of kicks, sweep, leg traps, and so on. Most Northern styles I've seen use tons of hands, close range, and so forth. I do think though, that Southern styles are more front end with thier fighting, in terms of time in training and conditioning. Perhaps this is a leftover from needing to learn to fight the Qing in a relatively short period of time.

Mike

 

[Darksoul]

-Nice post RHD! What you wrote summed it all up, at least for me.

A---)

 

[Mr_Scissors]

I find this a bit confusing, first:

Southern styles tend to use more triangular footwork and stress closer range fighting. They also make more direct use of grappling skills, and emphsize phsyical toughness with things like forearms and shins over direct "iron skills" training.

And then:

However, these are but generalizations. I think it was mentioned before about Southern suing more hands and Northern, more legs, but I think this isn't true, It's all in the instruction. Southern uses plenty of kicks, sweep, leg traps, and so on. Most Northern styles I've seen use tons of hands, close range, and so forth.

Could you clarify? Do you feel that Southern styles "use more triangular footwork and stress closer range fighting", or do you feel that "these are but generalizations" and "It's all in the instruction"?

 

[RHD]

I find this a bit confusing, first:



And then:



Could you clarify? Do you feel that Southern styles "use more triangular footwork and stress closer range fighting", or do you feel that "these are but generalizations" and "It's all in the instruction"?

Sure, sorry for any confusion.

Southern styles tend to do much more body conditioning such as toughening the forearms and shins, and learning to take blows to the body, much like a boxer would do. Northern styles tend to ustilize formal "iron body" exercises and take a more internal approach. The problem here is that there are many, ,amy Southern styles, and many, many Northern styles. It's very difficult to pen them all into one or two categories, not to mention stylistic mixing... So these are generalizations, and highly related to who is teaching them.

Mike