"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[wingchun100]

Have you visited the TKD forum? It takes all kinds of hits (if you'll pardon the pun) for not having any kind of inside game.

BJJ is criticised for its gaps as are every other style.

Never visited TKD. As for BJJ, all I ever hear about that are people saying how grappling styles are the only ones worth learning. I even asked a BJJ guy once, "Well, how would your grappling work if you were in a bar, and some alpha male and his three buddies confronted you? Are you going to grow three more sets of arms to deal with all 4 of them?"

He did not bother replying to my question.

 

[Steve]

Never visited TKD. As for BJJ, all I ever hear about that are people saying how grappling styles are the only ones worth learning. I even asked a BJJ guy once, "Well, how would your grappling work if you were in a bar, and some alpha male and his three buddies confronted you? Are you going to grow three more sets of arms to deal with all 4 of them?"

He did not bother replying to my question.

That's because you see what you want or expect to see. As I said, people are quick to criticize BJJ and every other style. Shoot, you're actively relating an anecdote where you criticize BJJ while simultaneously saying it never happens. Lol.

 

[Flying Crane]

I just really feel like, pretty much any method ought to be useful at any range, if you have a good understanding of it. Particularly if we are talking about a long striking range vs. a short striking range. How does one make the distinction? It is striking range, period. So strike.

My own method is a very "long fist" method, but that is just a training mechanism. I can use it at short striking range just as easily. Our punching techniques are not functional at X distance but become non-functional at X-1 distance. It just doesn't matter. They work at X, or at X-10, or at X+10 assuming you can still reach and make contact.

I think you are over-thinking it.

 

[wingchun100]

That's because you see what you want or expect to see. As I said, people are quick to criticize BJJ and every other style. Shoot, you're actively relating an anecdote where you criticize BJJ while simultaneously saying it never happens. Lol.

There is nothing I specifically "want or expect to see." I am one of the few people I know who has pointed it out. With Wing Chun, however, criticism is rampant. I mean, even here on a forum that is supposed to be mainly practitioners of the style (or people who at least appreciate it), there is always bashing going on. And I am not talking between lineages either; I'm talking about people who don't practice it at all and think it is worthless.

 

[Flying Crane]

There is nothing I specifically "want or expect to see." I am one of the few people I know who has pointed it out. With Wing Chun, however, criticism is rampant. I mean, even here on a forum that is supposed to be mainly practitioners of the style (or people who at least appreciate it), there is always bashing going on. And I am not talking between lineages either; I'm talking about people who don't practice it at all and think it is worthless.

What some uneducated schmuck on the internet thinks, is irrelevant. What is said here on martialtalk does not change the world.

 

[wayfaring]

Bruce is said to have known up through the first section or two of the dummy. Ip Man is often quoted as saying something along the lines of if his Chum Kiu level students couldn't hold their own, then there was a problem! So while Bruce Lee was certainly no Wing Chun "master", I think he had a pretty grasp of the way the system functions. And just a note, bridging in from the outside to get to an "in-fighting" range is not the same thing as having an "outside game." That's simply skipping past the "outside game."

Well, there is a skillset in handing off from outside range to inside range that you can't discount by saying it is "skipping past" it. Without that skillset developed wing chun looks like Asbel Cancio in the UFC.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Have you visited the TKD forum? It takes all kinds of hits (if you'll pardon the pun) for not having any kind of inside game.

BJJ is criticised for its gaps as are every other style.

This is why I had cross trained the WC system. My long fist system doesn't have a good inside game. If you ask a long fist guy, "How to protect your center from inside out?" He will not even understand what you are talking about.

The

- northern CMA is weak in "shrink".
- southern CMA is weak in "extend".

 

[Flying Crane]

This is why I had cross trained the WC system. My long fist system doesn't have a good inside game. If you ask a long fist guy, "How to protect your center from inside out?" He will not even understand what you are talking about.

The

- northern CMA is weak in "shrink".
- southern CMA is weak in "extend".

Umm...I dunno about that.

There is a difference between what you yourself may find useful, and what someone else may be able to do, even if you have a similar training background. I just would not make that generalization.

 

[wayfaring]

There is nothing I specifically "want or expect to see." I am one of the few people I know who has pointed it out. With Wing Chun, however, criticism is rampant. I mean, even here on a forum that is supposed to be mainly practitioners of the style (or people who at least appreciate it), there is always bashing going on. And I am not talking between lineages either; I'm talking about people who don't practice it at all and think it is worthless.

Yes totally. It disappoints me. People criticize wing chun for all sorts of reasons. Here. On a forum where they are supposed to understand enough about it to be proponents of it.

I am a brown belt who competes in BJJ, yet my primary art is wing chun. I personally am being criticized here because I am sharing details about how my art is opening up to me by drilling my primary response to be striking in a clinch over a takedown focus. How I am drilling my primary art, wing chun, as my main mindset, my main identity. They tell me I don't understand hybridization.

 

[wayfaring]

IMHO, WC does have 'long bridge' and 'short bridge'. Now, some may prefer to emphasize one vs the other in some kwoons or families but it is there.

Our family has long bridge short bridge. But even more important is the handoff from long range to short range.

 

[drop bear]

Never visited TKD. As for BJJ, all I ever hear about that are people saying how grappling styles are the only ones worth learning. I even asked a BJJ guy once, "Well, how would your grappling work if you were in a bar, and some alpha male and his three buddies confronted you? Are you going to grow three more sets of arms to deal with all 4 of them?"

He did not bother replying to my question.

Striking arts dont really have a solution to being bashed by a group of guys either.

 

[Steve]

There is nothing I specifically "want or expect to see." I am one of the few people I know who has pointed it out. With Wing Chun, however, criticism is rampant. I mean, even here on a forum that is supposed to be mainly practitioners of the style (or people who at least appreciate it), there is always bashing going on. And I am not talking between lineages either; I'm talking about people who don't practice it at all and think it is worthless.

Poor baby. Its so hard being a kung fu guy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Umm...I dunno about that.

There is a difference between what you yourself may find useful, and what someone else may be able to do, even if you have a similar training background. I just would not make that generalization.

To say that

- northern CMA is strong in "extension" (or weak in "shrink"),
- southern CMA is strong in "shrink" (or weak in "extension"),

is similar to say that

- boxing is strong is punch (or weak in take down),
- wrestling is strong in take down (or weak in punch).

Of course there are always exceptions.

WC can make your arms to have the same reach. Long fist can make your arm to have maximum reach and you will end with one long arm and one short arm. One's PRO is the others CON and vise verse.

 

[Flying Crane]

To say that

- northern CMA is strong in "extension" (or weak in "shrink"),
- southern CMA is strong in "shrink" (or weak in "extension"),

is similar to say that

- boxing is strong is punch (or weak in take down),
- wrestling is strong in take down (or weak in punch).

Of course there are always exceptions.

I dunno, I still would not make any such generalizations. Choy Lay Fut and Hung Gar are both southern, and both have good extension.

I just think generalizations like that hold too many exceptions to the point where it falls apart altogether.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I dunno, I still would not make any such generalizations. Choy Lay Fut and Hung Gar are both southern, and both have good extension.

I just think generalizations like that hold too many exceptions to the point where it falls apart altogether.

I'm pretty sure that the Hung Gar system came from north. Not too sure about CLF. It was a combination of 3 different MA systems

- Choy Gar,
- Lay Gar, and
- Fut Gar,

during the modern time.

If you look at

- WC,
- southern preying mantis,
- white crane,
- Okinawa Karate,
- ...

you can pretty much see a generalization of "square shoulder (90 degree between arm and chest)" that you don't see in the northern CMA system. Because this "square shoulder", you can have strong defense (shrink). Also because this "square shoulder", you don't have maximum reach - outside game (extension).

 

[Dirty Dog]

Striking arts dont really have a solution to being bashed by a group of guys either.

Well, since you're on your feet, you can bash an opening and then practice your Run-Fu. That's at least a little more difficult if you're on the ground.

 

[Steve]

Well, since you're on your feet, you can bash an opening and then practice your Run-Fu. That's at least a little more difficult if you're on the ground.

I'd love to see some real data on how likely that is to work. It would be very interesting to see, because it sounds like wishful thinking to me. Striker or grappler, if four guys are committed to beating the **** out of you, it's a bad day to be you.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'd love to see some real data on how likely that is to work. It would be very interesting to see, because it sounds like wishful thinking to me. Striker or grappler, if four guys are committed to beating the **** out of you, it's a bad day to be you.

I don't think there's any chance of finding statistics. I'll agree that 4:1 odds are always something to be avoided. Will you agree that it's easier to run if you're standing up?

 

[Flying Crane]

I'd love to see some real data on how likely that is to work. It would be very interesting to see, because it sounds like wishful thinking to me. Striker or grappler, if four guys are committed to beating the **** out of you, it's a bad day to be you.

Well, that depends on where you are in the escalation. I've done it. Granted, my would-be assailants were hardly Jason Bourne, but there I was, on a dark and lonely street in a seedy side of town, the wind was howling and a distant siren cut the night air like a hot .45 slug through a bowl of my Aunt Ruby's marshmallow and lime jell-o fruit salad. I was winding up a long day at work, just thinking about that hot meal and a beer waiting for me at home and how in the hell was I gonna make next month's rent?? and then it happened. How they got there and from where they sprang I will never know, and that bothers me to this very day, sir, the realization that my placid daydreaming, or, twilight dreaming as it more accurately stands, lead me headlong into dangers of a kind hardly dreamt of! But as I say, there I was, bad guys to the left of me...bad guys to the right of me...bad guys in front of me...threats and demands for a charity handout offending my sensibilities! And I knew right then and there sir, that my very metal was to be tested to its utmost limits! And I, sir, am no man to shrink from a challenge or a threat to my very being, no sir, not I! And I steeled myself for the encounter that was sure to come, knowing that whatever the outcome, whatever they might wring from my dying grasp of my goods and chattels, that I would visit any hurt or offense to my person back upon their heads tenfold!!!

Well sir, the die was cast at that moment and what was to come was fate and unstoppable. For the one of my many assailants, he reached forth and positioned his very body in such a dastardly way as to hinder my own advance! And he did give me a push, a shove upon my own self, into an obstruction! Well, I was not to stand for it, let me tell you sir, no I would not. Rather, I pressed myself into an opening, a gap between my very assailants, and I did bolt for life and limb! I dashed myself down the road and my devious and dastardly assailants gave chase. I heard the one shout, "get the bag!" as I had slung about my shoulders a satchel known in the common parlance as a "duffle" bag. And in my own mind my internal voice screamed, "oh thou shalt not!!!!!!" For within that satchel there lay one of the very few treasures that I owned to my very name, one of few luxuries that my wretched condition of employment allowed me in my time of dispair. That satchel held a Walkman, purchased with hard-earned currency that very afternoon! And I would not part with it for the cost of my soul!

Well I lead those fellows a merry chase and they did drop away after some time. I feel some satisfaction in the thought that they were astounded that this fellow they chose to exercise their ruffianism upon, this man in a suit and tie, did outrun them in both speed and in distance, their shouts and howls of frustration fading in the distance as I put mileage between us. For my conditioning was like that of the pronghorn of the plains!

And I did make it to safety, I will have you know, and am here to relate this tale of suspense and horror to you today, for your education and satisfaction.

 

[wingchun100]

Poor baby. Its so hard being a kung fu guy.

Poor baby? WTF? Is that even called for? Very mature reply. I guess you missed the sticky that the moderators put up.