New belt for Second Dan?

[Earl Weiss]

Please note the wearing of a Flag ptch is acceptable for a "Patriotic Organization". There is no definition of a "Patriotic Organization" so if you consider your MA org. or any org for that matter to be patriotic the exception applies.

I think this part of the flag code has been revised over time.

 

[Manny]

So you don't agree with rank bars on belts, but you want a different uniform to mark you out as special among the black belts? Sounds a bit hypocritical... All black belts are equal, but some are more equal than others.

Why not make everyone (you included) wear all white, students will know who is the instructor because you're the one teaching them?

Personally I'm OK with dan bars (I have them as do all bar one of our black belts) but it seems weird to say you're against them and then still want some differentiator.

Well if that's your opinion I will respect it. The fact is I really like the white jacket/black pants combo and this is only my taste, and for the record is not that I don't like the rank bars, no sir, but it's my taste these days a plan black belt. You are ok with dan bars I am glad for you.

Than you for your reply.

Manny

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Where do you draw the line? If having rank stripes is 'egotistical' or showing off, why wear a black belt at all? Why not just train in a tracksuit with no belt, why even own a black belt? As I said earlier, we had a training camp a couple of weeks ago, there were literally hundreds of black belts all together training on the beach, I regularly asked seniors for advice, if everyone was just in a plain black belt it would have been mayhem. Being able to easily identify someone of a higher/lower rank made things much easier.

 

[puunui]

Please elaborate on how a baby first dan who has been training perhaps 4 years is equal to a 9th dan who has been training 40 years.

On MT they would be.

 

[puunui]

Please note the wearing of a Flag ptch is acceptable for a "Patriotic Organization". There is no definition of a "Patriotic Organization" so if you consider your MA org. or any org for that matter to be patriotic the exception applies.

Also, there is probably some 1st Amendment free speech protections as well. I vaguely remember reading a flag burning case and I want to say a flag clothing case way back in the day. You probably read the same cases.

 

[shesulsa]

On MT they would be.

Explain, please.

 

[puunui]

Explain, please.

Do you really need an explanation?

 

[shesulsa]

Do you really need an explanation?

I'm curious if you're complaining about the board itself or internet jockies in general.

 

[puunui]

I'm curious if you're complaining about the board itself or internet jockies in general.

I don't think the forum itself is the issue. Personally I don't write or say anything on here that I wouldn't say directly to a person's face. I also think some of the others really don't follow that same standard. I also think that a lot of people feel that it is appropriate to disregard seniority when making comments, which is why I said that the baby 1st Dan with four years of training is the equal of the 40 year 9th Dan on MT. Not just on MT, but in all of the big public organizations that I am affiliated with, Kukkiwon, USAT, WTF, etc., there are a lot of juniors who do not want hear or consider what their seniors have to say, especially if that senior has a viewpoint that is different from their own.

I have no doubt that those juniors will come to realize and understand their seniors' point of view, in much the same way that those who helped to tear down the USTU have come to realize what they have done. Hopefully, that realization won't come too late, like it seems to have for USAT.

 

[shesulsa]

While I understand what you're saying and don't necessarily disagree with the traditional respectful mindset that seems to have waned.

Here on the board, however, you're asked to come here without ego - it is an equal playing field for people's discussion. That's not to say that honorifics and traditions are out of place or are rejected - they're just not required.

I think it might also be of use to everyone if *each* of us practiced a lot of humility.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I don't think the forum itself is the issue. Personally I don't write or say anything on here that I wouldn't say directly to a person's face. I also think some of the others really don't follow that same standard. I also think that a lot of people feel that it is appropriate to disregard seniority when making comments, which is why I said that the baby 1st Dan with four years of training is the equal of the 40 year 9th Dan on MT. Not just on MT, but in all of the big public organizations that I am affiliated with, Kukkiwon, USAT, WTF, etc., there are a lot of juniors who do not want hear or consider what their seniors have to say, especially if that senior has a viewpoint that is different from their own.

I have no doubt that those juniors will come to realize and understand their seniors' point of view, in much the same way that those who helped to tear down the USTU have come to realize what they have done. Hopefully, that realization won't come too late, like it seems to have for USAT.

The problem with this theory is that to say "I have no doubt that those juniors will come to realise and understand the seniors point of view", is that you are insinuating that all seniors have the same point of view. With you, for instance, I disagree with most things you say but so would most 7th or 8th dans at my club and they are seniors. So by saying I will come around to your way of thinking is very narrow minded because it implies that all seniors have the exact same ideas and theories which simply isnt true. I have no doubt that most of the views I have now as a first dan will not change as I progress because I didnt start MA as a kid, I started as an adult and most of my views are thought out and come from talking with my seniors.

 

[shesulsa]

Are we seriously going to have this argument?

For years the Korean forums here were virtually silent because high ranking Korean martial artists argued about who was smarter, whose opinion mattered more, who deserved honorifics on this forum. This actually included literally insulting other members of the forum with the assumption that they were lower rank or younger know-nothings.

It took some time to get productive conversation started again here.

I'm glad you value your opinion. I'm glad you have some years behind your opinions. But your opinions are still just that. You will not be verbally bowed to here by all members just because you are older and carry high rank, especially if you try to demand it.

Leave ego at the door, please.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Are we seriously going to have this argument?

For years the Korean forums here were virtually silent because high ranking Korean martial artists argued about who was smarter, whose opinion mattered more, who deserved honorifics on this forum. This actually included literally insulting other members of the forum with the assumption that they were lower rank or younger know-nothings.

It took some time to get productive conversation started again here.

I'm glad you value your opinion. I'm glad you have some years behind your opinions. But your opinions are still just that. You will not be verbally bowed to here by all members just because you are older and carry high rank, especially if you try to demand it.

Leave ego at the door, please.

Well said. Pretty much word for word what I have been trying to say for some time now. Opinions are just opinions, I dont care whether you are a white belt or a 9th dan you are entitled to an opinion and your opinion shouldnt be of any less value because of what belt level you hold in the dojang.

 

[terryl965]

Well said. Pretty much word for word what I have been trying to say for some time now. Opinions are just opinions, I dont care whether you are a white belt or a 9th dan you are entitled to an opinion and your opinion shouldnt be of any less value because of what belt level you hold in the dojang.

GEEEE didI just not go over this in the RANT thread I started. Man somethings will never change.

 

[andyjeffries]

Please elaborate on how a baby frst dan who has been training perhaps 4 years is equal to a 9th dan who has been training 40 years.

Ha ha ha, you completely missed my point... (and I thought you knew me better than to think I'd agree with the above)

If you read Manny's post he was saying that he didn't agree with rank bars (a lot of people think it's egotistical). He was saying he wanted everyone to wear the same uniform/belt, except him who would wear a different uniform.

Now, does my comment make more sense?

 

[andyjeffries]

Well if that's your opinion I will respect it. The fact is I really like the white jacket/black pants combo and this is only my taste, and for the record is not that I don't like the rank bars, no sir, but it's my taste these days a plan black belt. You are ok with dan bars I am glad for you.

my point was, as I explained to earl, that you don't like dan bars but you want to still show you're different from the students. It would have been a different matter if you'd said "all black belts can wear black trousers if they want".

I respect you and your teaching desires, but I thought this was funny...

 

[Earl Weiss]

Well said. Pretty much word for word what I have been trying to say for some time now. Opinions are just opinions, I dont care whether you are a white belt or a 9th dan you are entitled to an opinion and your opinion shouldnt be of any less value because of what belt level you hold in the dojang.

Well, for what it's worth, i disagree.

I believe all opinions should be respectfuly considered.

However, I give more weight to the opinion formed based on longer and more varied experiences. Having forty years of experience, and having the same experience for 40 years is far different.

In another thread I questioned an opinion because based on the profile of the poster it indicated they were a color belt. It also involved an accurate standard for technique and I happened to know the standard he commented on was that of his instructor. I questioned the depth of his experience as it related to the value of his opinion.

Many posters criticised my critique of his opinion. Yet , the poster himself / herself later chimed in and agreed that the breadth of his experience was limited and could very well change his opinion if broader.

 

[Earl Weiss]

On the flag thing. Some of us may be old enough to remeber when USA Basketball won the Olympics (1992). There was an issue because the official sponsor athletic wear was a competitor of the company for which some of the athletes were paid sponsors. They didn't want to be seen wearing the competitors logo and in fact it may have been a breach of contract to do so.

There was a problem if they defaced or removed the logo.

So they all came out for the medal ceremony showing their patriotism by having a flag draped across their shoulders... a violation of the flag code..... and it just so happened that it strategicaly covered the logo.

No one accused them of disrespecting the flag.

 

[Balrog]

Well one of the rules in our school is we line up by rank. It could be difficult to distinguish black belt ranks if the bars were not on the belts. In time everyone knows but to a new student it could be confusing. Our blackbelt ranks have grown from about five to about 20 in the six years I have been attending.

You should have quit at this point.

But don't worry, I got the insult so you're good...Now you can go feel better about yourself.

That last line was totally uncalled for and completely out of line. There was no insult in what he posted; he clearly stated that it was his personal opinion. I'd like to ask if your instructor would be proud of your posting what you did.

Agree or disagree with his opinion as you wish, but respect that opinion. Courtesy and respect are the hallmarks of a true martial artist.

 

[puunui]

While I understand what you're saying and don't necessarily disagree with the traditional respectful mindset that seems to have waned.

oh well. I also notice that some of those who rebelled against their teachers and/or seniors now have students or juniors who are or will be rebelling against them. It will be interesting to see how that generation handles the situation.

Here on the board, however, you're asked to come here without ego - it is an equal playing field for people's discussion. That's not to say that honorifics and traditions are out of place or are rejected - they're just not required.

I understand that. Everyone is entitled to voice an opinion or state what they believe are facts. What I am interested in is what that opinion or statement of fact is based on.

I think it might also be of use to everyone if *each* of us practiced a lot of humility.

To me, the martial arts are about self discovery. Through its study, we learn about who we are and what we are capable of. We also are given the opportunity to learn and grow. I think that if people kept that in mind, then they may get a clearer picture of what is going on, at least from my perspective.