Never Trust Anyone That Hasn't Been Punched in the Face

[Tez3]

HAHA! that's why I put in quotes (with the lol even!), it was sarcastic jab at the macho stance the author was spouting.

“If a man were truly brave he wouldn't have to be always proving it to himself.” -James Jones

You have to type it in the sarcasm font.

 

[granfire]

But I do have to agree....vegetarianism is bad for society...
I am running into way too many people who lost touch with reality and how brutal it can be. Rainbows and butterflies...nothing ever has to die....

 

[Indagator]

I believe that there are some valid points behind what the author of the article is attempting to articulate, however it sounds like he is too immature to understand or comprehend them himself and therefore cannot truly express the points he has encountered.

So while I agree, in principle, with some of the truth that lies behind the overall message he is attempting to explain, I disagree with the article as it stands.

 

[Tez3]

But I do have to agree....vegetarianism is bad for society...
I am running into way too many people who lost touch with reality and how brutal it can be. Rainbows and butterflies...nothing ever has to die....

It's the flatulence veggies have that will do for the world...

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Reminds me of the sleep talking man, and his alter ego's hatred of vegetarians.. .

http://www.sleeptalkinman.blogspot.com/



"It's CHICKEN and you LIKE IT. Lentil-loving, bean burger-******** wanker."

"Vegetarians will be the first to go. That's my plan. Vegans haven't got a hope. 'I eat air, I'm so healthy...' Bollocks!"

"Put it down! Step away from the yam. Step away!"

"Fluffy bunny + twitchy nose + big ears = great stew."

 

[punisher73]

I don't think you can classify cowardice so easily, if you run away from a mob that makes you sensible, if you start a fight when you shouldn't that makes you an idiot however most people have it in them to be brave, often heroic deeds aren't thought about, they are spur of the moment things. Rescuing someone from a burning building may be perceived as the act of a brave person but that same person could be cheating on their partner and not be brave enough to face up to it and sort it out.

Notice I didn't define "cowardice". In the context of the article and the sociological research it is more about standing up to a physical challenge in the form of a rite of passage. There are some that cite mandatory military service and the basic training of such as a rite of passage. Most young men in the US military challenge themselves and go through this. The examples you gave and things that the VAST majority of young men will never have to encounter, thus again why it was stated that a young US male can go through his life and never know if he is a coward or not.

 

[Tez3]

Notice I didn't define "cowardice". In the context of the article and the sociological research it is more about standing up to a physical challenge in the form of a rite of passage. There are some that cite mandatory military service and the basic training of such as a rite of passage. Most young men in the US military challenge themselves and go through this. The examples you gave and things that the VAST majority of young men will never have to encounter, thus again why it was stated that a young US male can go through his life and never know if he is a coward or not.

I don't think however facing up to a physical situation defines courage, it can take huge courage to tell your parents you are gay, or that you are beng bullied for example. It can take huge courage to resist peer pressure to do something wrong. Physical courage is actually relatively easy, moral courage is a far bigger and probably better thing. I don't believe young men have to join the military to be considered 'brave', challenging yourself is being competitive rather than being brave.

 

[punisher73]

I don't think however facing up to a physical situation defines courage, it can take huge courage to tell your parents you are gay, or that you are beng bullied for example. It can take huge courage to resist peer pressure to do something wrong. Physical courage is actually relatively easy, moral courage is a far bigger and probably better thing. I don't believe young men have to join the military to be considered 'brave', challenging yourself is being competitive rather than being brave.

Yep, we are in agreement on that moral courage can be harder than physical. Not the point of a "rite of passage" though.

My whole point was that for young men in the US, there is nothing that says "you are a man now". Many societies have a rite of passage that challenges them and afterwards their society looks on them as a man. There is nothing like that for young men in the US, that is why so many try to find challenges and "prove" to themselves or others that they are a man. In speaking with women, I have not come across that same type of drive or need (in the US) to go through something so people will start "treating them like a woman" (could be wrong, obviously it is a small sample size to draw from).

 

[Tez3]

Yep, we are in agreement on that moral courage can be harder than physical. Not the point of a "rite of passage" though.

My whole point was that for young men in the US, there is nothing that says "you are a man now". Many societies have a rite of passage that challenges them and afterwards their society looks on them as a man. There is nothing like that for young men in the US, that is why so many try to find challenges and "prove" to themselves or others that they are a man. In speaking with women, I have not come across that same type of drive or need (in the US) to go through something so people will start "treating them like a woman" (could be wrong, obviously it is a small sample size to draw from).

Why do you need a rite of passage? And why does it have to involve violence? Don't you feel like men? If not that's more to do with general society rather than any lack of rite of passage. I don't know any other men from here, Europe or Asia that feels they aren't me or need a rite of passage to say they are.
This is usually good enough for guys here.
http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_if.htm

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Why do you need a rite of passage? http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_if.htm

That is a good question. Why do societies ritualize something? Why are there rituals for births, deaths, marriages, promotions, birthdays, etc.. . It illustrates what values/beliefs are of high importance within a particular society, and marks a person's progress from one status to another.

Why was it once important to acknowledge a boy becoming a man through ritual, but not important now? Why do people still celebrate girls' sweet sixteens or quinceaneras? Religions tend to maintain rituals, so I can understand how coming of age rituals like Bar and Bat Mitzvahs continue. But I'm curious why certain cultural/societal coming of age rituals have been maintained and others have been forgotten.

In a MA context, look at the earning of your BB. I would gather that your BB certificate is more ornate or bigger than the others. Much more responsibility comes with wearing the BB too. Do any of you have different rituals for the BB ceremony vs. colored rank? In my mind, the BB is a "rite of passage" so to speak in itself.

I wouldn't suggest that your BB test is necessarily "violent," but you do have to show that you have "earned" the right to wear a BB; both mentally and physically.

I would think there would still be some merit in youth "earning" the right to be an adult.

 

[punisher73]

Why do you need a rite of passage? And why does it have to involve violence? Don't you feel like men? If not that's more to do with general society rather than any lack of rite of passage. I don't know any other men from here, Europe or Asia that feels they aren't men or need a rite of passage to say they are.
This is usually good enough for guys here.
http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_if.htm

Who said anything about the rite of passage involving violence? Many involve the young man going out on his own in the wilderness to depend on himself and what he has learned to complete a quest/challenge. Reread what I wrote again, I said "many" young men feel a need to prove themself. Not all.

You cited a man who tried to live his whole life a a rite of passage and came from a time when young men were challenged into adulthood. You are heavily involved in MMA, read the psychology of many of those fighters and you find lack of a male figure to guide them into adulthood and they are now fighting to prove themselves to their own self and others. You don't have to agree with it, it is just a fact of the male ego.

 

[Tez3]

Who said anything about the rite of passage involving violence? Many involve the young man going out on his own in the wilderness to depend on himself and what he has learned to complete a quest/challenge. Reread what I wrote again, I said "many" young men feel a need to prove themself. Not all.

You cited a man who tried to live his whole life a a rite of passage and came from a time when young men were challenged into adulthood. You are heavily involved in MMA, read the psychology of many of those fighters and you find lack of a male figure to guide them into adulthood and they are now fighting to prove themselves to their own self and others. You don't have to agree with it, it is just a fact of the male ego.

Now that's a big a piece of codswallop as I've heard for a long time lol. So, all male fighters are the product of single mothers? hardly, you forget I think that MMA fighters are martial arts who want to compete and see if their martial arts work. They are no different from any other martial artist just because they fight full contatc lol.

Sometimes you know a poem is just a poem espeically when you earn a living by writing and have bills to pay.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

You are heavily involved in MMA, read the psychology of many of those fighters and you find lack of a male figure to guide them into adulthood and they are now fighting to prove themselves to their own self and others. You don't have to agree with it, it is just a fact of the male ego.

I'm not very knowledgeable about the MMA fighters these days, and you're assertion made me curious. I did a quick search on the top 10 pound for pound UFC champions, and out of all weight classes, I only see one that has come from a broken home; the bantam weight champ Dominick Cruz.

While I would agree, that it can be a motivating factor for any athlete, I'm not sure it would apply any more to an MMA athlete vs any other sport. Other motivating factors may include poverty, natural athletic talent, passion for the sport, etc.. . However, I will say with certainty, the projected ego and lack of humility of many fighters that are publicized on television is huge, and not something that would last very long in a traditional setting. That said, it's television, and certain sacrifices must be made in the name of ratings, I'm sure. Since there are no MMA gyms near me, I have no experience or exposure to MMA fighters beyond TV, so I can't speak to the everyday MMA gym rat.

But conscious or not, every competition (no matter the sport) feeds the ego. It takes a man/woman with great humility to compete (and consistently win) in the spotlight and not become full of him/herself, and if no one has ever fostered that type of behavior, I could see how it may be easier to fall into the pattern of proving yourself to others or oneself.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not very knowledgeable about the MMA fighters these days, and you're assertion made me curious. I did a quick search on the top 10 pound for pound UFC champions, and out of all weight classes, I only see one that has come from a broken home; the bantam weight champ Dominick Cruz.

While I would agree, that it can be a motivating factor for any athlete, I'm not sure it would apply any more to an MMA athlete vs any other sport. Other motivating factors may include poverty, natural athletic talent, passion for the sport, etc.. . However, I will say with certainty, the projected ego and lack of humility of many fighters that are publicized on television is huge, and not something that would last very long in a traditional setting. That said, it's television, and certain sacrifices must be made in the name of ratings, I'm sure. Since there are no MMA gyms near me, I have no experience or exposure to MMA fighters beyond TV, so I can't speak to the everyday MMA gym rat.

But conscious or not, every competition (no matter the sport) feeds the ego. It takes a man/woman with great humility to compete (and consistently win) in the spotlight and not become full of him/herself, and if no one has ever fostered that type of behavior, I could see how it may be easier to fall into the pattern of proving yourself to others or oneself.

MMA gym rat? I assume you aren't trying to be insulting? Would you call a karateka or TKDist a gym rat, I doubt it so please don't be that rude about MMAers who are no less martial artists.

Firstly I suggest you open your mind and forget what you see on television. The fighters you see on the UFC etc are professional athletes, the same as the pro boxers, the pro skiers, the pro track and field athletes and the pro tennis players which means they are also part entertainer, part business person. They have to seek publicity and perform as there employers wish. It's their living.
MMA gyms and clubs are full of people pursuing martial arts, they train the same as any other martial artist, they aren't professionals they compete as TKDists and karateka do, they rarely get paid, if they do it's expenses. They do it as a sport, a hobby, they train a couple of times a week. If you look at records they lose and win, for most while it's good to win it really is all about taking part, fighters enjoy the fight... (not for nothing is it called physical )chess, the thinking it takes to outwit your opponent then having a drink with him in the bar after, the craic, the cameraderie of the team etc, they'll only fight two or three times a year. It's a total thing, they aren't out to prove anything just have a good night. Egos aren't encouraged and your team mates soon bring you down to ground. It really isn't anything like you imagine. Honestly, MMA gym rats...I find that actually upsetting. Try martial artists and everyday bog standard British blokes who do martial arts.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

MMA gym rat? I assume you aren't trying to be insulting? Would you call a karateka or TKDist a gym rat, I doubt it so please don't be that rude about MMAers who are no less martial artists.

Firstly I suggest you open your mind and forget what you see on television. The fighters you see on the UFC etc are professional athletes, the same as the pro boxers, the pro skiers, the pro track and field athletes and the pro tennis players which means they are also part entertainer, part business person. They have to seek publicity and perform as there employers wish. It's their living.
MMA gyms and clubs are full of people pursuing martial arts, they train the same as any other martial artist, they aren't professionals they compete as TKDists and karateka do, they rarely get paid, if they do it's expenses. They do it as a sport, a hobby, they train a couple of times a week. If you look at records they lose and win, for most while it's good to win it really is all about taking part, fighters enjoy the fight... (not for nothing is it called physical )chess, the thinking it takes to outwit your opponent then having a drink with him in the bar after, the craic, the cameraderie of the team etc, they'll only fight two or three times a year. It's a total thing, they aren't out to prove anything just have a good night. Egos aren't encouraged and your team mates soon bring you down to ground. It really isn't anything like you imagine. Honestly, MMA gym rats...I find that actually upsetting. Try martial artists and everyday bog standard British blokes who do martial arts.

Don't get your panties in a bunch Tez Gym rat is a common term over here for someone who "lives" in the gym. Unless you see spending a lot of time at a gym an insult, then I was making no derogatory comment.

I'm not sure why you are suggesting that I am closed minded, since I am only commenting on what I have experienced. There are no gyms in my area, so I am as "open" as possibly can be. While many sports' athletes carry a stigma as "less-than-ideal role models," right now the UFC carries such a stigma. Look at the rape "jokes" that have sent Miguel Torres packing got Forest Griffin scolded. Many peoples' only knowledge of sports' athletes are what are portrayed on television, which, while it does not represent all athletes of the sport, those said athletes are representing the sport. Basketball and American football are also littered with "less-than-ideal" role models for athletes, but I wouldn't say that "pro skiers, pro track and field athletes, or pro tennis players (with maybe the exception of John Macenroe) have that same stigma.

I also stated that I could not comment as to what is seen on television represent the everyday athlete or the sport as a whole. Nothing I stated above was attacking, derogatory or "close minded" towards MMA, I have friends across the U.S. who train and compete in those types of competitions, and I have the utmost respect for them. If you re-read my post, you would see that I was arguing that to the contrary of Punisher's comment, only one of the weight class champions lacked a male role model or had a colorful past.

 

[Tez3]

Don't get your panties in a bunch Tez Gym rat is a common term over here for someone who "lives" in the gym. Unless you see spending a lot of time at a gym an insult, then I was making no derogatory comment.

I'm not sure why you are suggesting that I am closed minded, since I am only commenting on what I have experienced. There are no gyms in my area, so I am as "open" as possibly can be. While many sports' athletes carry a stigma as "less-than-ideal role models," right now the UFC carries such a stigma. Look at the rape "jokes" that have sent Miguel Torres packing got Forest Griffin scolded. Many peoples' only knowledge of sports' athletes are what are portrayed on television, which, while it does not represent all athletes of the sport, those said athletes are representing the sport. Basketball and American football are also littered with "less-than-ideal" role models for athletes, but I wouldn't say that "pro skiers, pro track and field athletes, or pro tennis players (with maybe the exception of John Macenroe) have that same stigma.

I also stated that I could not comment as to what is seen on television represent the everyday athlete or the sport as a whole. Nothing I stated above was attacking, derogatory or "close minded" towards MMA, I have friends across the U.S. who train and compete in those types of competitions, and I have the utmost respect for them. If you re-read my post, you would see that I was arguing that to the contrary of Punisher's comment, only one of the weight class champions lacked a male role model or had a colorful past.

Calling someone a rat here will get you a bunch of fives, it's not a friendly term at all not even in jest. We don't use the word panties either, that's a sleazy word used in porn films, 'knickers' would be better.
I get really really tired of saying the UFC isn't MMA, it's a business, one promotion among many, it's a big one but it's not MMA. You can't judge MMA by the UFC, it's the same as judging TKD solely by watching Olympic TKD or Olympic wrestling by watching WWE. The UFC isn't 'all that' as you'd say, over here, it actually failed in Germany, we have our own promotions and we love them. I don't know anything about 'rape' jokes as I don't have a huge interest in what goes on in the UFC. I don't see a stigma attached to fighters over here, for example Rosi Sexton is often on the media talking about it, Alex Reid certainly doesn't met any expections of being the macho man.

Pro track athletes here however have a reputation for performance enhancing drug taking as do pro cyclists.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Calling someone a rat here will get you a bunch of fives, it's not a friendly term at all not even in jest. We don't use the word panties either, that's a sleazy word used in porn films, 'knickers' would be better.
I get really really tired of saying the UFC isn't MMA, it's a business, one promotion among many, it's a big one but it's not MMA. You can't judge MMA by the UFC, it's the same as judging TKD solely by watching Olympic TKD or Olympic wrestling by watching WWE. The UFC isn't 'all that' as you'd say, over here, it actually failed in Germany, we have our own promotions and we love them. I don't know anything about 'rape' jokes as I don't have a huge interest in what goes on in the UFC. I don't see a stigma attached to fighters over here, for example Rosi Sexton is often on the media talking about it, Alex Reid certainly doesn't met any expections of being the macho man.

Pro track athletes here however have a reputation for performance enhancing drug taking as do pro cyclists.

And here we have yet another lesson in colloquialisms and the interpretation of language.. .

But all colloquialisms aside, I do find it interesting that popular MMA athletes in the UK don't seem to have the stigmas that many of the North and South American athletes do.

I wonder why that is?

 

[Tez3]

And here we have yet another lesson in colloquialisms and the interpretation of language.. .

But all colloquialisms aside, I do find it interesting that popular MMA athletes in the UK don't seem to have the stigmas that many of the North and South American athletes do.

I wonder why that is?

Money...we don't have any. There's little to no money in MMA here and we are a very small sport, we all know each other, seriously, we do. We tend not to over hype anyone really in any sport. We have the world champions in quite a few sports but nobody really bothers, we don't do hype very well.

 

[Tez3]

Here's the UK's fighters.

http://www.thefightlounge.co.uk/uk-fighters-write-to-santa-shocker/

 

[punisher73]

Now that's a big a piece of codswallop as I've heard for a long time lol. So, all male fighters are the product of single mothers? hardly, you forget I think that MMA fighters are martial arts who want to compete and see if their martial arts work. They are no different from any other martial artist just because they fight full contatc lol.

Sometimes you know a poem is just a poem espeically when you earn a living by writing and have bills to pay.

Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit. I have not stated absolutes on here, but instead of looking at what is written you attack a small part of it in a strawman attempt to discredit it. Read what I wrote.

You are heavily involved in MMA, read the psychology of many of those fighters and you find lack of a male figure to guide them into adulthood and they are now fighting to prove themselves to their own self and others. You don't have to agree with it, it is just a fact of the male ego

I said, "many" of the fighters. I didn't say "all" or even "most". Watching shows and listening to interviews, there are alot that came from a background where the father was either absent or abusive. Interestingly enough, the top players in the sport usually don't and fight for different reasons. Maybe "many" means something different in your opinion, but I am using it as "more than a few".

As to the poem, you are the one that cited it as to what manhood was and I gave you the context of it's author. Now, it's just a poem. ok. You can't understand male psychology and why SOME (as I keep stating) need a rite of passage anymore than I can say I understand childbirth. Again, you don't have to agree with it, just recognize that it is a sociological fact.