As my father used to say, "Crap in one hand and wish in the other and see which one gets fuller faster."
Necessary Evils: Poll and essay thread
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As my father used to say, "Crap in one hand and wish in the other and see which one gets fuller faster."
I know it's hard to imagine when our whole world seems like it is dominated by a "do this or I'll force you" attitude. We've been conditioned to this.
But, there are huge tracts of our life that are voluntary, huge important tracts that were not voluntary generations ago. As we learn how to reason with each other, we resort to force less.
Ultimately, the appeal to force is irrational and the areas where this dominates our lives will continue to defy reason. I don't think it needs to be this way no matter the size of the group. This is evidenced by marriage. No one forced me to marry my wife and yet this was the most important decision I have ever made.
I'm glad we're discussing this. Rather than evil, we really should be talking about force. Is it necessary? Is it excusable? What rational basis do the fundaments of power rest upon?
Good luck with that. I'm frankly happier dealing with what is rather than what I wish would be. Far fewer headaches than trying to rationalize why people are greedy, selfish, violent, and cruel.
Rather than rationalize why people are like that, how about we not try to be like that in more and more areas of our lives.
Because I have no plans to become a victim willingly.
Yet it's society that has forced you to consider only one wife. Why have you allowed society to force you into a decision like that? Or are you going to attempt to rationalize this decision as something you weren't forced into accepting by societal mores?
Yet it's society that has forced you to consider only one wife. Why have you allowed society to force you into a decision like that? Or are you going to attempt to rationalize this decision as something you weren't forced into accepting by societal mores?
Dude, handling my wife is enough work for a man. Lol.
Can you be a good person and not be a victim?
Who gets to decide whether I'm good or not?
First of all, Bill, aren't you Catholic? Don't you already have an answer for this question?
In the future, rationally defined ethics will tell you if you are right or wrong. It will be as obvious as 2 + 2 = 4.
Isn't that moral relativism? Lol...oh the irony!
You keep trying to tie your notions back to concepts which are inventions of humans. Sorry, there are no objective good and evil references, so you can't keep trying to tie these things back to that.
My Catholicism has nothing to do with it. That's my belief system, not objective, provable, reality.
As Carol intimated, that's a community based thing in part - we all decide to some extent who we think is evil and who is good (I tend to the latter in BillM's case
) by what they say and what they do. A persons belief system may have an impact on their behaviour or on how other people see them but it is by no means an absolute yardstick. For example, as we know because we have openly and frankly discussed it before, Bill's a Catholic, a religion of which I do not have a high opinion based on it's foundation and it's history. But Bill's beliefs are personal to him and he gets something in his life from the Church that he wouldn't otherwise have and, most importantly, he does not use his religion as either a stick with which to beat others or as a measure of his views of others deeds. So it is not an issue in how I perceive his innate 'goodness'.
Sorry, I was raised Catholic, so I know a thing or two about it. One thing I know is that they believe in absolute morality. So, I'm wondering how you rationalize this.
I think the core of Catholicism is actually relativistic morality, which is why it has been used to justify so much psychopathic behavior throughout history.
And there is your answer. What I believe and what I can prove objectively are two different things.
And with that, I'm resigning from this conversation. It appears I cannot have a discussion without someone attacking my beliefs (not you). I'm done, see ya later.
0 is a concept of human invention, but it has a rationale proof. Therefore, it exists as a provable concept, despite it's abstract nature. Ethics will eventually follow suit. In the future humans will have a rationale proof for secular ethics. "Good" and "evil" will exist as provable concepts in a "unified field theory" of morality.
Philosophers have a lot of work to do on this concept. Right now people are convinced that the human universe is relative and that there are no real "laws" that govern human behavior. I think this is a twofold lie. On one hand, we don't know of any other place in the universe that isn't governed by laws, why would human interaction be any different? On the other hand, I think the concept of moral relativism is very convenient for the particular violent hierarchies in which we organize ourselves today. That's why these hierarchies invent religion with all kinds of top down morality for the masses and loopholes that excuse the elite managerial class from prohibitions against violence. Psychopaths have used religion, have used moral relativism to hide among us like vampires so they can prey at will.
The consequences of this behavior are natural. Humanity is on the brink of extinction. A small group of humans could launch a thermonuclear attack that wipes everyone out tomorrow. It's too bad that the natural consequences for bad behavior are so subtle. Perhaps if humans were able to perceive the negative effects as easily as dropping an apple, we'd have already had our ethical version of the Principia.
Yet, I think we're getting to the point where this is changing. Our society has reached the point where it can destroy itself at the drop of a hat and it seems to have hesitated. We have polluted to oceans so badly that we have trash islands larger than Texas and we're starting social actions to at least slow this. We've polluted our bodies so badly that my generation will be the first generation to be sicker, dumber, and poorer than our parents and some of us have rebelled against it.
I believe that all of this is governed by natural law. The story of the human species is one of slowly recognizing each other as humans. From man to man, from man to woman, from parents to children, we've grown better and more peaceful as we've extended more and more natural rights to each other. Martin Luther King said, the arc of humanity bends toward justice. This arc is the rational proof of secular ethics.
We're approaching it, but we still have a long way to go and people a lot smarter than me are going to figure this out. I don't think I will see this in my lifetime. I don't know if my children will see it. Until then, I'll practice my martial arts. Bob's site is safe for a few more generations.
Lastly, a note about psychopaths. For the normal person, it takes conditioning to overcome the arc of justice, as MLK put it. For the psychopath, they need no conditioning. They are amoral and self serving, crystallized beings of universalized moral relativism. These people are the natural predators of humanity and appear among us as handsome charismatic leaders. But I think it should be recognized that the lust they have for power is a natural outgrowth of who they are. It's one of the reasons why they invent myths to cloak themselves in mantles of "goodness" that are merely expressions of their underlying moral relativism. They have dragged humanity into Dark Ages of ossified power structures where they sit in control of the sick violent hierarchy of society in the past. And I think they seek to do so again in the future. Or as Joseph Cambell said, "we need a new myth."
Beware of your justifications for moral relativism. It's the same old myth repackaged into a new form.
Amen Ra
I'm starting a cult next week. We will be the Math Pirates and demand booty^2.
Since the only other one that mentioned it in this thread was me, then I have to assume you are referring to me as attacking your beliefs. First off, I'm Catholic also. Second, there was no attack. Third, if you are so easily offended in your faith, then I think you should have a good long talk with your priest about it, and perhaps he can help you with whatever issues are troubling you.
Tgace
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