Wheat is evil, but we would starve without it. 
Necessary Evils: Poll and essay thread
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Sensei_Dez
White Belt
I agree the "evil" is a label, and because it's so relative we will never live in a world where everyone adheres to a standard of moral law, everyone will have their own version of what's "ok"
so in order to prevent such a system from falling into complete chaos and anarchy we develop societies in which some evils must exist to ensure stability, imagine if there were never weapon's created, there would be no way to make a large group of people follow any form of law, human society would never exist
so in order to prevent such a system from falling into complete chaos and anarchy we develop societies in which some evils must exist to ensure stability, imagine if there were never weapon's created, there would be no way to make a large group of people follow any form of law, human society would never exist
Tgace
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Can you name me any place in the world today where, if I gathered up a hundred of their children and killed them, that I wouldn't be considered "evil"?
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That really does depend on context, Tg, which I think is the thing being alluded to in the past few comments here.
All of us here at MT (I hope) would say it was evil but there are still societal conflicts around the world where such things happen and those that carry them out do not consider themselves 'evil' - the danger of indoctrination whether it be tribal, national or religious is that it can make the clearly immoral justifiable. That's a different concept to a necessary evil.
All of us here at MT (I hope) would say it was evil but there are still societal conflicts around the world where such things happen and those that carry them out do not consider themselves 'evil' - the danger of indoctrination whether it be tribal, national or religious is that it can make the clearly immoral justifiable. That's a different concept to a necessary evil.
Sensei_Dez
White Belt
that's a cute response, I don't believe anyone here said ALL or even ANY form of evil is necessary, so that's obviously not one, but there are some, a necessary evil is letting someone have power knowing that they'll misuse it, but also knowing that the stability will prevent atrocities like mass genocide, a necessary evil is having one man killed so that 10 can live,
the bottom line is that I'm showing that there are shades of grey, and that's an obvious fact of reality, the perspective that there's a black and white line that nothing anyone can deem is bad should be done is naive, what shade of grey is too dark is moot, and I'm sure we'd all find we pretty much agree on it
the bottom line is that I'm showing that there are shades of grey, and that's an obvious fact of reality, the perspective that there's a black and white line that nothing anyone can deem is bad should be done is naive, what shade of grey is too dark is moot, and I'm sure we'd all find we pretty much agree on it
Yes I can. Rio. It happens all the time. Next question.
Sensei_Dez
White Belt
lol, I like you
People who bomb abortion clinics and shoot abortion doctors say this also. They see such actions as self-defense the same way you might see shooting a rapist or a mugger who was trying to harm some passerby. Do you agree that they are fighting evil?
That's the point. Everyone decides what evil is, and everyone else's definition is wrong. Evil is 'common sense' except that we don't all share the same definition.
"Everyone has some common definitions of evil that we can all agree on." Nope. We don't.
And evil itself? No such thing, except in our minds.
But that's just it...a hundred of their children. It's all tribal.
Hmmmm. What is moral courage? How do you know if a person has it?
A wedding party in Afghanistan.
A sad commentary, but yeah, we're making lots of excuses for accepting the damage our drones do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_courage
As to how I'd know if a person had it, I don't. I do not know the motivations other people have. What appears to be one thing, might well be another. I'm not inside their heads.
Sensei_Dez
White Belt
. . . . did you really just cite wkikipedia?
Around here it is a sort of implicit understanding through common usage that the Wiki is a useful starting point for research by the reader, Dez. It's not taken as an authoritative source but as a shorthand resource that, depending on supporting sources, can be refuted or agreed with by the reader as he or she is inclined.
Sensei_Dez
White Belt
fair enough, if that's your prerogative, but in response to wiki definition of moral courage
"Moral courage is the courage to take action for moral reasons despite the risk of adverse consequences"
I'd say that moral reason is moot, if a person convinces them self a harmful act is morally just and acts upon it, would we still call it a courage? and example would be any form of revenge homicide
"Moral courage is the courage to take action for moral reasons despite the risk of adverse consequences"
I'd say that moral reason is moot, if a person convinces them self a harmful act is morally just and acts upon it, would we still call it a courage? and example would be any form of revenge homicide
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Again, it's a construct-in some of the tribal societies of Borneo, nothing could be more moral-or courageous-than leading a raid on a rival village and taking the heads of one's enemies in revenge-and that's only the mopst immediate example that comes to mind; I won't even get into what my ancestors might have thought of as "morally courageous," rather than, say-evil.:lfao:
In all seriousness, in spite of the insistence of some, morals are not absolute-they are societal constructs, and entirely arbitrary. What is defined as "moral" in one society is clearly "immoral" for another-a source of much conflict throughout the history of cross-cultural contact. Just as clearly, what one society calls "evil" is often seen as "good" in another.
That's why I did not want to be put in that box. I don't believe in it, but I was asked what it is. So I cited Wikpedia.
An intriguing question and one worthy of discussion. Perhaps a separate companion thread to this one would be useful in which the nature of 'moral courage' is discussed? Or do we think that the two subjects are closely enough intertwined that we can discuss them as sides of the same coin? I can certainly see that for a 'good' person the two concepts of necessary evil and moral courage are related.
