Naihanchi.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by D.Cobb



How do you refer to different points? Do you use their Chinese Dim Mak names, perchance? What is wrong with the St9, Gb13, SI17 references?

Is there a difference between the regular Chinese names and Dim mak names?
Basically what is wrong with using acupuncture names is the points are so small and difficult to find when someone is standing still that there is no way you could possibly find them on a moving person that is uncooperative and wanting to do you harm.


Secondly, atemi and kyusho strikes are for the most part not based on acupuncture points but general areas.
Take the "whack" to the neck that cause unconsciousness.
There are no less that 8 acupuncture points there, all fairly small, about the size of an eraser on a pencil, and very close together. My hand is pretty average size and if I hold my hand up to someone's neck I cover almost all of those points.
Question: If I whack someone on the neck and knock them out which one did I hit?
Answer: Probably all of them.

Question: Which "acupuncture point" caused him to be knocked out?
Answer: None of them. That technique is commonly misrepresented as working on a acupuncture point, ki flow, time of day and a whole host of other gobbldy guck, but in reality what happens is no different than being hit in the head and being knocked out like any other blow to the head.

Originally posted by D.Cobb

Do you have an easier way of teaching these points to your students? I am interested to know, as I for one would love an easier way to remember where and what I will be striking during any given technique.
--Dave

Sure.
Learn how to crawl first, then stand, then walk, then run, then fly.
Don't be in a hurry or look for quick fix answers.
Study the basics from someone who is qualified and the rest will come to you in time.

I have found that the folks that "only" talk about kyusho don't really know a whole lot about it.
Kind of like sex.........the ones that are talking about it the most are getting it.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



Perhaps others who live in Japan and who have more info on Japanese culture could enlighten me further, but it is my understanding that the clothing worn my married and unmarried women indicated their status most obviously.

Kimonos indicated the status as to whether a woman is married or not.
Long sleeve bottoms indicated single, short sleeve bottoms indicate married.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Given the Japanese taboo of tatooing (it was used primarily by the criminal underground, and just not done in polite society - modern Japan is still resistant to tatooing (you will be asked to leave some spas and public baths if you have tattoos), though the younger generation is following the rest of the world with "hip" tattoos), it would likely not be the rule to indicate a married woman with a tattoo, and given the fastidious cleanliness of the Japanese and their predilection for regular bathing, I would guess that painting the hand in complex designs that are time consuming to create wouldn't be much of an explanation either...

Tattoos in Japan have a long history and at one point long ago were outlawed as was smoking. (should have kept the smoking law)
Recently the younger generation seems to be more tolerant of tattoos.

However, Okinawa was a different country up until recently and has had among other cultures strong Polynesian influences.
Tattoos in Okinawan were, from what I have been told and read, used for spiritual reasons, to ward off evil and sometimes even illness.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

First of all my instructor study with Seiyu Oyata, and he also talks about when Dillman was there. He doesn't have anything good to say about Dillman. One of my good martial arts friends has now joined Dillman's group. He has had a couple seminars with DKI. At one of the seminars they tried a partical knock out on me. They whack and whack on me. After about 5 or 6 strikes to the side of the neck, I said " what am I suppose to feel". Also at the same seminar one of the guys that had some training in the no touch crap tried it on me. My take on it is they try to hepmotize the individual with the hand. They did a couple knock outs but the individual was just standing there. Going back to my instructor he talks about Oyata knocking out one guy while Oyata had kempo gloves on and the student kendo gear. He said Oyata hit him so hard he crack the metal kendo helmet. I think it would be great to meet Seiyu Oyata and even better to work out with him. He only lives about 8hrs by car from me.
Bob :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu


They did a couple knock outs but the individual was just standing there.

Key point: "Just standing there"
(No trying to attack just standing..........sounds like a bloody useless technique)

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Going back to my instructor he talks about Oyata knocking out one guy while Oyata had kempo gloves on and the student kendo gear. He said Oyata hit him so hard he crack the metal kendo helmet.

I have seen that helmet. It used to be hanging in the dojo, it actually has a nice fist size dent in it.

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I think it would be great to meet Seiyu Oyata and even better to work out with him. He only lives about 8hrs by car from me.
Bob :asian:

Just out of curiosity, can you tell me the name of your teacher (by e-mail is fine)

 

[Matt Stone]

I started training with RyuShiKan last Saturday, and trained again last night.

For those that say things found in traditional kata are crap, I would encourage you to train with those who have trained under Taika Oyata. It is a real eye opener.

I got dropped like cattle with a sledge between the eyes repeatedly last night, had my hand darn near ripped from my wrist, and that was just the light stuff...

I have to say I wish I had begun training with RyuShiKan way earlier. I have been in a very good kung fu system for the last 16 - 17 years, but this would have made for an additional lifetime of study... Very real, very practical, very easy with some practice... Good stuff. VERY good stuff...

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :samurai:

 

[arnisador]

What is the relationship, if any, between Seiyu Oyata and Taika Oyata?

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Originally posted by arnisador

What is the relationship, if any, between Seiyu Oyata and Taika Oyata?

It is the same person. I believe Taika is the name he used back in Okinawan, and Seiyu is the name he goes by here in the U.S. I am sure Ryushikan can give a better reason. But I do know for a fact it is the same person.
Bob :asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

I got dropped like cattle with a sledge between the eyes repeatedly last night, had my hand darn near ripped from my wrist, and that was just the light stuff...

Just as a qualifying caveat to my earlier post, I am about 5 feet, 8 inches tall and weigh in at about 215 pounds... Been in the Army for the past 10 years, so I'm not an Olympic athlete but I'm no slouch...

One good shot to the right spot, and big or not, down I went. While moving, not standing still, I might add...

Good, good, good stuff...

Gambarimasu

:samurai: :samurai:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador

What is the relationship, if any, between Seiyu Oyata and Taika Oyata?

It is the same person.
Taika is a title similar to "O-sensei" and Seiyu is his first name.

 

[D.Cobb]

Just as a matter of interest, have you heard of a guy by the name of Dr. Pier Tsui-po. He claims to be well versed in Dim Mak techniques, and I would be interested in the opinion of someone else who appears to know which way is up. Also I am wondering have you heard of Frank Monea, both these guys are from Australia, and when Mr. Monea demonstrates, he will only use a moving target as he claims that a standing target will not show correctly the effects of certain strikes.

Also in a previous post you said, in answer to one of my questions, "Learn how to crawl first, then stand, then walk, then run, then fly.
Don't be in a hurry or look for quick fix answers.
Study the basics from someone who is qualified and the rest will come to you in time."

Does this mean, that rather than say, "Strike Stomach 9 blah, blah, blah....", that to start with we should just say, "strike to the front of the neck in this manner, blah, blah, blah........"?

I'm just trying to clarify a point.
--Dave


:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by D.Cobb



Also in a previous post you said, in answer to one of my questions, "Learn how to crawl first, then stand, then walk, then run, then fly.
Don't be in a hurry or look for quick fix answers.
Study the basics from someone who is qualified and the rest will come to you in time."

Does this mean, that rather than say, "Strike Stomach 9 blah, blah, blah....", that to start with we should just say, "strike to the front of the neck in this manner, blah, blah, blah........"?

I'm just trying to clarify a point.
--Dave

What I meant was you should study the basic punches/blocks/strikes as well as the kata, and what most folks totally over look is the footwork. If you don't have the right foot work you won't be where you should be when you are striking.

Forget all the triple heater 17, stomach 9, gall bladder whatever.........learn where the body is weak, see what happens when certain areas are struck, which way the body moves an so on.
Which is the best way to strike it, what is the best hand (open or closed or something else) to strike it with and so on.
Push around on yourself and see what feels uncomfortable then use a good friend as a crash dummy.

All that "accu-talk" won't do anything but make you "sound" like you know what the hell you are talking about to an uninitiated person.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

All that "accu-talk" won't do anything but make you "sound" like you know what the hell you are talking about to an uninitiated person.

Ok, now I understand that, what about when you talk to the initiated. You know, say someone like your instructor, where you maybe discussing what happens when a certain area is struck in a certain manner, would you then refer to individual points, or would you still talk about a specific area?

The reason I ask this, is because my instructor, very rarely uses the "accu-talk", when instructing juniors, however with seniors, black belt and above, he will quite often use "accu-talk". I was just wondering how you, and yours do it.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

When my teacher taught us vital point striking, we used the actual names (Parting of the Valley, etc.), not the clinical terminology (St 6, etc.), and we continue to do so...

When we were training in TCM, we used the actual names as well...

:samurai: :samurai:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

When my teacher taught us vital point striking, we used the actual names (Parting of the Valley, etc.), not the clinical terminology (St 6, etc.), and we continue to do so...

When we were training in TCM, we used the actual names as well...

That is a good idea.
Many of the Chinese names are usefull for treatment purposes.


Mr. Cobb,

I am not saying don't educate yourself on accupuncture termanology or the principles of it. In fact just the opposite, educate yourself as much as possible on eveything.
What I am saying is that the people that use all the "accu-talk" (the "Color by numbers kyusho" version) to describe atemi and kyusho in most cases tend to be yahoos and know very little, if anything, about what they are saying.
Also, many of the atemi and kyusho points are not always used for treatment like accupuncture points are.
The frightening thing is since 99% of the US/Western world knows squat about accupuncture they have no reason not to take the "Yahoo's" word for it.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Mr. Cobb,

The "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" stuff is a fad.
Here is why.
In the late 70's and early 80's tippy-tap point sparring was the "real deal" and if you weren't doing it you were doing the real stuff.
Also about that time there was a slight switch to do full contact kickboxing.".....and if you didn't have some connection to that your weren't doing the "real deal"
During the early 80's it was Sho Kasugi Ninja craze and many karate instructors became overnight "Ninja-compoops".....and if you didn't have some connection to that your weren't doing the "real deal"
Now we are in the middle of the BJJ/NHB/UFC/Pride and the "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" phase........and if you don't have some connection to that your aren't doing the "real deal".
The "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" will pass and all the folks that jumped on the band wagon and made a few bucks off of it will look just as stupid as all the people that "became" "Ninja-compoops" back in the 80's.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Mr. Cobb,

The "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" stuff is a fad.
Here is why.
In the late 70's and early 80's tippy-tap point sparring was the "real deal" and if you weren't doing it you were doing the real stuff.
Also about that time there was a slight switch to do full contact kickboxing.".....and if you didn't have some connection to that your weren't doing the "real deal"
During the early 80's it was Sho Kasugi Ninja craze and many karate instructors became overnight "Ninja-compoops".....and if you didn't have some connection to that your weren't doing the "real deal"
Now we are in the middle of the BJJ/NHB/UFC/Pride and the "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" phase........and if you don't have some connection to that your aren't doing the "real deal".
The "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" will pass and all the folks that jumped on the band wagon and made a few bucks off of it will look just as stupid as all the people that "became" "Ninja-compoops" back in the 80's.

For the most part, I agree with what you say whole heartedly. I also agree, that most "experts" comfirm the theory that "X" is the unknown quantity and spurt is a drip under pressure.

I had heard about the pressure point stuff and I wanted to see it first hand. I had seen videos of static demos and wanted to see if it worked for real. The very first KO I saw using kyusho was about 3 years ago and I must say I was impressed but unconvinced. My martial arts base was American Kenpo, where we were taught that to feel is to believe. It wasn't long, however before I had felt enough and dished out enough to be convinced that everything I wanted was in the system of Ryukyu Kempo that I now train in.
I guess the point I am trying to make is to let you know, I am not into fads. If I can't feel it I wont believe it. I was just interested to know how you would refer to specific points. Also I do understand that what we are striking are not always acupuncture points, and that certain strikes will create an effect in your opponent that will lead you to your next move, not just a KO.

Also I was wondering, if you would say that EVERY school that uses "accu-talk" is no good, or if you would be prepared to accept that there are some people out there who use what is more readily accepted to teach, that are genuine and very very capable?

It is funny, because when I started, everything was St9, blah, blah, blah, Gb20, blah, blah, blah, and these days the only time these terms are used is in the black belt classes, and also black belt club. And as you said in a previous post when you hit a certain area you will strike an uncertain number of points, this is how we are taught now.

Sorry for rambling,
--Dave
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

Also I do understand that what we are striking are not always acupuncture points, and that certain strikes will create an effect in your opponent that will lead you to your next move, not just a KO.

Many points are not used for medical purposes.
Kyusho and atemi strikes are not just meant to KO people.
For example I had a discussion with a "modern stylist" that swore atemi and kyusho were crap and wouldn't work.
I asked him if he ever did mawashigeri to the thigh of his opponent. He said yes it was a common kick.
I said when you kick him just about right "here" he will fall down or his leg will be weakened right. Again he agreed.
So I told him that he was kicking was an atemi area on the leg.
The area I am referring to is can be located by standing at "attention" and placing the hands straight down along the outside of the thigh, the area is located about where the middle finger tip ends. (Fengshi and Zhondu or GB 31 &GB 32 for the color by numbers folks)
Since most people don't have feet the size of a pencil you would be hitting 2 acupuncture points or 1 atemi area.

Originally posted by D.Cobb

Also I was wondering, if you would say that EVERY school that uses "accu-talk" is no good, or if you would be prepared to accept that there are some people out there who use what is more readily accepted to teach, that are genuine and very very capable?

I don't know, haven't been to every school yet.
I do know of some of the more "famous" people that commonly make mistakes when naming points during seminars and so on.
If you are thinking of a specific school please email me.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

RyuShiKan,
When working different Kata's would or could they have the same bunkai. If the movement found in one kata and found in another, or are they completely different bunkai. I believe they could have the same bunkai, just wanted to get your input.
Bob :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

RyuShiKan,
When working different Kata's would or could they have the same bunkai. If the movement found in one kata and found in another, or are they completely different bunkai. I believe they could have the same bunkai, just wanted to get your input.
Bob :asian:

Depends on the kata.

Some techniques are repeated in a single kata but it doesn't necessarily mean they are the same bunkai.
However, "similar" techniques could possibly be found in more than one kata.

 

[Matt Stone]

I was taught that similar "codes" in forms referred essentially to the same techniques, though the footwork accompanying the "code" would change the application and possible variations of the technique...

But like RSK said, depending on the form and what techniques/combinations/etc. come before and after the "code" in question, can radically alter what you think you see hidden there...

Gambatte.

:samurai: :samurai: