Naihanchi.

[D.Cobb]

Fair enough, I just wondered as you are the first one I have come across, with that veiw point. Are you sure it was his wife that did the translating? It is my understanding that he spent a lot of time studying in Japan himself and that his wife is Italian.
I could be wrong, it has been known to happen.


--Dave

 

[RyuShiKan]

His wife is Japanese, infact I knew Pat and his wife, Yuriko, while they were in Japan and I can assure you she did the translations

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

Fair enough, I just wondered as you are the first one I have come across, with that veiw point. ........
--Dave

To be honest, I have met many people that feel the same way as me.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Cthulhu



Naihanchi was the original Okinawan name of the kata. I believe it was Funakoshi who changed the name to Tekki. For the most part, same dang thing.

Cthulhu

Yes, Funakoshi did change the name of that kata and several more. The reason being it was too Chinese sounding for the Japanese who were getting read to wage war on the Chinese.
One of the older names was Nai fuan Chi. I don't buy into the idea that all 3 Naihanchi were at one time a single kata.

The Tekki kata practiced in Shotokan/JKA/JKF on the mainland are quite different than the versions of Naihanchi as practiced on Okinawa.

 

[DKI Girl]

Hi DAve,

I was interested in some of the breakdowns that you have for your Naihanchi kata. I have been working on that one too and would love to hear about some different applications.

dki girl

 

[arnisador]

I learned Tekki Shodan yesterday (Shotokan style--I don't know who all else does it as Tekki since Shotokan started calling it that). Different from the Isshin-ryu version I learned years agao in feel but not in pattern.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador

I learned Tekki Shodan yesterday (Shotokan style--I don't know who all else does it as Tekki since Shotokan started calling it that). Different from the Isshin-ryu version I learned years agao in feel but not in pattern.

The basic pattern in all Naihanchi/Tekki katas are the same side to side pattern. It is mostly the hand and some of the foot work that is different.
Some versions are more "basic" meaning less hand movements.
(Note: When I say "basic" I don't mean less techniques with in the kata just less hand motion in the performance)

As for the differences between Mainland and Okinawan version I am not sure how to explain them but they can be VERY different depending on the style.

Also of note, most Japanese karate people I talk to on the mainland say Naihanchi is a "baby kata" or "beginners kata" and has little or no value other than teaching basic blocks and punches.
This is due to it being short in length and not very "sophisticated" looking compared to other kata.

I disagree.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Naihanchi kata at one time was a beginner kata, before the Pinan (Heian in Japanese karate) were developed. Anko Itosu developed these Pinan kata's. These kata's where first introduced in 1901 to an Okinawan Elementary school. The pinan kata's became the beginner or kids kata's. Most people call Gichin Funakoshi the father of modern karate. Personally, l I feel he is the father of modern Japanese Kaarate. Anko Itosu, who was Gichin teacher the father of modern karate. Some of the above info I got from the book Okinawan Karate by Mark Bishop.
Bob :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu


Naihanchi kata at one time was a beginner kata, before the Pinan (Heian in Japanese karate) were developed.

Actually yes and no.
Depending on the style (since some styles don't have Naihanchi) it was the first kata taught, this does not always mean it was the "beginners kata".
My teacher teaches this one first because he said it is one of the most difficult to master. By master I don't mean the movements to perform the kata but the techniques within the kata. It takes about 30 minutes to be able to learn & reproduce the "dance" aspect of it but it takes much longer to develop the techniques within it.
Long ago people only learned one or maybe two kata at the most and that was their "style". For example if you only knew the kata Kusanku you did Kusanku style, or if you did Naihanchi kata you did Naihanchi Style.
This is why the whole Shuri Te, Naha Te, Tomari Te idea is bunk since most styles today have so many other "styles" mixed together.
(Please refer to Motobu Choki's book Ryukyu Kempo Tode Jutsu for more info on that.)
When Karate became more open people learned more "styles".

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Anko Itosu developed these Pinan kata's. These kata's where first introduced in 1901 to an Okinawan Elementary school.

There is actually another thread on this somewhere around here.

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Most people call Gichin Funakoshi the father of modern karate. Personally, l feel he is the father of modern Japanese Kaarate. Anko Itosu, who was Gichin teacher the father of modern karate.
Bob :asian:

Agreed.

Itosu was the first person to actually try and successfully open karate up into the mainstream of society by introducing it into the schools systems of Okinawa.

Funakoshi, whom I rather dislike, tended to "extend the truth" about himself and his importance.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Yes, most people think he's the greatest teacher there was. In fact there where a ton more that's probably better then he was. I also agree with you on learning 1 or 2 kata's. My instructor has a book wrote by Seyiu Oyata, in there he stated that people would have martial art duels. Before these duels happen they would perform a kata. If they could read the other person's bunkai and they felt the other person was better they would cancell the fight. That's my 2 cents
Bob :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

My instructor has a book wrote by Seyiu Oyata, in there he stated that people would have martial art duels. Before these duels happen they would perform a kata. If they could read the other person's bunkai and they felt the other person was better they would cancell the fight. That's my 2 cents
Bob :asian:

Which book was this again?
Do you know the name of it?

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I believe it was call "Ryu Te No Michi". On the cover of the book it has a Women's hand holding a flower and her hand is painted. I ask my instructor if that was a tatoo. He said no it was a way of showing if you where married women or not. The web site for it is
www.ryushu.com
Bob:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I believe it was call "Ryu Te No Michi". On the cover of the book it has a Women's hand holding a flower and her hand is painted. I ask my instructor if that was a tatoo. He said no it was a way of showing if you where married women or not. The web site for it is
www.ryushu.com
Bob:asian:

I have read that book. My teacher wrote it back in 1998.
The photo on the cover is a tattooed hand.
Sometimes woman in Okinawa used to tattoo their hands for religious reason and sometimes to ward off evil.
This practice is rarely if ever done so that woman is most likely very old.

As for the practice of doing kata before a duel I don't remember my teacher ever writing anything about that.
I know he did write about studying other peoples movements which you mentioned and it is called Rok-kan, and about studying their skill which is called Ken-kyu.

The website you mentioned belongs to a friend of mine named Mike Minor.
There is another good book you can order from there called "Ryukyu Kempo: History and Basics" written by Kyoshi Jim Logue.
Very good book.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Hi DAve,

I was interested in some of the breakdowns that you have for your Naihanchi kata. I have been working on that one too and would love to hear about some different applications.

dki girl

Well some could be a bit hard to explain in writing, and of course one application is not the only application. Also, the ones I have seen are pressure point techniques. If you study PP you will understand what I'm on about, but if you don't you wont.

I am only just learning too, so you would probably be better off, getting a hold of books or tapes by Dillman or one of the guys from the Dragon Society.

--Dave:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by D.Cobb



Well some could be a bit hard to explain in writing, and of course one application is not the only application. Also, the ones I have seen are pressure point techniques. If you study PP you will understand what I'm on about, but if you don't you wont.

Agreed. Learning from the Internet is just as impossible as learning from a book.

Originally posted by D.Cobb

I am only just learning too, so you would probably be better off, getting a hold of books or tapes by Dillman or one of the guys from the Dragon Society.
--Dave:asian:

I disagree.
I have seen Dillmans tapes I noticed many areas that are incorrect. Foot work just for starters.
Last year I had someone from Dragon Society come to my dojo.
The y were ranked 4th dan by Dragon Society, their skill level and knowledge of tuite/atemi/kyusho was extremely poor.
I do not recommend them at all.
In fact anyone that is teaching the "Color by numbers kyusho" method as I like to call it I wouldn't recommend. So if you hear someone start rattling off things like Stomach 9, Gallbladder 13, Small Intestine 17....or whatever .......I would forget about those guys.

I can recommend Taika Oyata tapes, found on my website, (small plug here since he is my teacher).
He has trained with very respected masters in Okinawa and has been doing tuite/atemi/kyusho jutsu since before all of the above people were born. So if anyone would know about it he would.
Hopefully this doesn't sound like I am trash talking the other guys but I just don't feel they have the skill level that my teacher does.
Let me put it to you another way..............if the other guys knew more than my teacher does I would be studying with them, but they don't so I am not.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



I disagree.
I have seen Dillmans tapes I noticed many areas that are incorrect. Foot work just for starters.
Last year I had someone from Dragon Society come to my dojo.
The y were ranked 4th dan by Dragon Society, their skill level and knowledge of tuite/atemi/kyusho was extremely poor.
I do not recommend them at all.
In fact anyone that is teaching the "Color by numbers kyusho" method as I like to call it I wouldn't recommend. So if you hear someone start rattling off things like Stomach 9, Gallbladder 13, Small Intestine 17....or whatever .......I would forget about those guys.

I can recommend Taika Oyata tapes, found on my website, (small plug here since he is my teacher).
He has trained with very respected masters in Okinawa and has been doing tuite/atemi/kyusho jutsu since before all of the above people were born. So if anyone would know about it he would.
Hopefully this doesn't sound like I am trash talking the other guys but I just don't feel they have the skill level that my teacher does.
Let me put it to you another way..............if the other guys knew more than my teacher does I would be studying with them, but they don't so I am not.

I am happy for you that you have that much faith in your instructor, but that doesn't mean he knows it all. I am equally biased toward my instructor, but he doesn't have any videos available. As to the DSI, I find it hard to believe that you could base your opinion of them upon one instructor. As a whole, I find that their stuff is very informative. As to who knows more, your instructor or others, does it really matter? And if it does, then who told you who it was that knows more?

In the end it just becomes a matter of conjecture. We are all on the same path, some just take a different path. It doesn't matter who is right... only who is left.

RESPECT
--Dave:asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

In fact anyone that is teaching the "Color by numbers kyusho" method as I like to call it I wouldn't recommend. So if you hear someone start rattling off things like Stomach 9, Gallbladder 13, Small Intestine 17....or whatever .......I would forget about those guys.

How do you refer to different points? Do you use their Chinese Dim Mak names, perchance? What is wrong with the St9, Gb13, SI17 references?

Do you have an easier way of teaching these points to your students? I am interested to know, as I for one would love an easier way to remember where and what I will be striking during any given technique.

--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

If you study PP you will understand what I'm on about, but if you don't you wont.

Sorry, I should have checked your profile before I answered, then I would have known that you train at a Dillman School.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

I am happy for you that you have that much faith in your instructor, but that doesn't mean he knows it all.

Perhaps not, but certainly more than Mr. Dillman, since RyuShiKan's teacher is the man Mr. Dillman claims taught him kyushojutsu in the first place...

So who is more competent? Mr. Dillman, or the guy that Mr. Dillman alleges taught him kyushojutsu?

That having been said, I have had the opportunity to train with adherents of Mr. Dillman's methods, RyuShiKan, and my own teacher (we do vital point striking as well, though since we are a Chinese system we use the English translations of the Chinese acupuncture names - in Chinese they are not referred to as Stomach 9, Gall Bladder 394, etc.).

I can say that I find it amusing that while Mr. Dillman alleges his training with Taika Oyata is the origin of his knowledge, his methods and the methods of those who continue to train under Taika Oyata are completely different. There are no multiple strike "set ups," just instant pain and incapacitation. My teacher's methods have similar effect.

And an interesting cultural note...

I ask my instructor if that was a tatoo. He said no it was a way of showing if you where married women or not.

Perhaps others who live in Japan and who have more info on Japanese culture could enlighten me further, but it is my understanding that the clothing worn my married and unmarried women indicated their status most obviously. Given the Japanese taboo of tatooing (it was used primarily by the criminal underground, and just not done in polite society - modern Japan is still resistant to tatooing (you will be asked to leave some spas and public baths if you have tattoos), though the younger generation is following the rest of the world with "hip" tattoos), it would likely not be the rule to indicate a married woman with a tattoo, and given the fastidious cleanliness of the Japanese and their predilection for regular bathing, I would guess that painting the hand in complex designs that are time consuming to create wouldn't be much of an explanation either...

Where is your teacher from, by the way? I'm guessing not Japan... No offense intended. :asian:

:samurai: :samurai:

Thanks for the training tonight, RyuShiKan. Good stuff. Time for Tiger Balm...

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by D.Cobb



I am happy for you that you have that much faith in your instructor, but that doesn't mean he knows it all.

I don't ever recall saying he did.

Originally posted by D.Cobb

As to the DSI, I find it hard to believe that you could base your opinion of them upon one instructor. As a whole, I find that their stuff is very informative.

I actually based my opinion on being a licensed TCM practitioner, what they have published, videos I have seen of them, and seeing them in "action" firsthand.

Originally posted by D.Cobb

As to who knows more, your instructor or others, does it really matter?

If you like you can search other Martial BBoards/ On Line Magazines for extensive amounts of information on the dubious backgrounds as related to kyusho for Dillman, DSI/Moneymaker, Clark.

Well actually it does matter.
Do you study with the person has only studied 10 months or the or that has studied 10 years.
Let's look at it this way:
My teacher studies these arts for what is going on 60 years.
Dillman trains ever so briefly attending a few seminars and what not with my teacher then departs
and teaches Moneymaker/ Clark and some others who in turn depart Dillman after brief study.

Originally posted by D.Cobb

In the end it just becomes a matter of conjecture.

No, it is not. My opinion is actually based on facts that I have mentioned.

Originally posted by D.Cobb

We are all on the same path, some just take a different path.

Again this is incorrect. Dillman/DSI and their ilk have gone wild and seem to be on a different path.
Just as an example, I can't ever recall my teacher propagating these ridiculous "no touch knock outs" like some of the above mentioned.