My style doesn't have this

[Headhunter]

if you not disagreeing i have no idea why yoi wrote such a long post, not disagreeing

nb who told you karate doesnt have throws in it?

Sensei YouTube I assume

 

[JowGaWolf]

katas are so vague that you can read anything you want to see in to them, theres no way of knowing if your correct or not,

Not sure what is difficult to understand about forms and katas.

The reason you probably don't understand is because you only see kata as a dance. If that's a perspective you are not willing to change then you will never see beyond that. Sounds simple to me. You don't understand because you have no desire to understand.

I'm the same way about some things so it's not a dig on you. I just accept that I don't want to understand and refuse to be involved in any discussion about the topic which I don't want to understand.

Has far as katas being vague. Not really. If you don't understand what you are seeing then yes it's going to be vague because you don't have the information that you need to understand it. As for as read anything into it and not knowing what is correct. Easy. try to use it and you'll find out if what you read into is correct or not. It doesn't take long to figure out which is which.

what do you do if you cant find anything that even vaguely resembles what your looking for,

Easy ask someone who may know.

 

[jobo]

Not sure what is difficult to understand about forms and katas.

The reason you probably don't understand is because you only see kata as a dance. If that's a perspective you are not willing to change then you will never see beyond that. Sounds simple to me. You don't understand because you have no desire to understand.

I'm the same way about some things so it's not a dig on you. I just accept that I don't want to understand and refuse to be involved in any discussion about the topic which I don't want to understand.

Has far as katas being vague. Not really. If you don't understand what you are seeing then yes it's going to be vague because you don't have the information that you need to understand it. As for as read anything into it and not knowing what is correct. Easy. try to use it and you'll find out if what you read into is correct or not. It doesn't take long to figure out which is which.

Easy ask someone who may know.

buy i do understand it, its a dance

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is exactly why I feel it is wrong to look at the forms / kata of an art as if they are the dictionary of techniques for that art. Honestly, when was the last time you found a dictionary, where every other definition was for the word "elephant?" Dictionaries do not define the same word over and over and over...

If you really want to look at forms / kata as the dictionary of techniques... then you need to rework all of them. Make it so that each technique only exists one time in all your forms / kata. Where ever a technique shows up a second time, replace it with a new technique... so that you now have a long list of unique techniques. Now your art will have a much longer list of techniques in it. But, you will have lost the most important pieces of Long Fist.

Instead of thinking of Kata as a dictionary. Think of it as a sentence. The techniques found in a system are nothing but words with meanings and uses. Forms and kata take these words (techniques) and creates sentences or poems.

Sentences may be straight forward and direct with its meaning. Sentences may also be indirect and require that you think beyond the words on the page in order to understand.

 

[JowGaWolf]

buy i do understand it, its a dance

Thank you for proving my point

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not that I ever saw. Perhaps your training is different than mine was.

I don't know a martial art system that doesn't have the basic hip throw

Best things are found in books, irony is that this is a video showing a book lol.

Got more coming

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't know a martial art system that doesn't have the basic hip throw

Best things are found in books, irony is that this is a video showing a book lol.

Got more coming

Dig deeper. If not in your school see if another school within the same system has it.

Another oldie but goodie. I don't know any martial art system that doesn't have this

 

[JowGaWolf]

Dig deeper. If not in your school see if another school within the same system has it.

Another oldie but goodie. I don't know any martial art system that doesn't have this

Dig Deeper. The biggest schools are not always the best schools

Doesn't Taekwondo mean "The way of the foot and hand" or something like that. Anyway Dig Deeper 7:33 is similar to a punch in Jow Ga except the application isn't the same. The way that I use it works as I've actually used it during sparring.

 

[Flying Crane]

Instead of thinking of Kata as a dictionary. Think of it as a sentence. The techniques found in a system are nothing but words with meanings and uses. Forms and kata take these words (techniques) and creates sentences or poems.

Sentences may be straight forward and direct with its meaning. Sentences may also be indirect and require that you think beyond the words on the page in order to understand.

I just think of it as options and possibilities. None of it is stuff that you must be able to use. I believe that: you do not need to be able to use everything, or even a lot of, what is found in a kata. It isn't mandatory applications.

It is not the total of what the method contains. Lots of things not found in the kata can have a home within the system. It isn’t a list of the complete system.

It just shows options, based on the foundational principles and the major techniques used in the method. Options that you might use as-is, or options that give you ideas of what is possible and give you the insight to develop your own solutions to the problems that you are faced with.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I watched this old video. If this is TKD, then yeah it had throwing techniques. I'm just looking at the hand techniques in the video and it doesn't take long to see that there was more there then what I see in may of today's Olympic style TKD school...I 'm typing this as I watch the video and guess what I saw I at the end of the video. I'll keep it a secret. I don't even like TKD.. But some of the things I saw in this video made me think. If someone taught THAT. I would take TKD. and form me to say that is a really big thing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I just think of it as options and possibilities. None of it is stuff that you must be able to use. I believe that: you do not need to be able to use everything, or even a lot of, what is found in a kata. It isn't mandatory applications.

This is true. Like a sentence, we don't use all of the words we know. We just use the words that we need.

Lots of things not found in the kata can have a home within the system. It isn’t a list of the complete system.

Totally agree with this one. A lot of the throws that are in Jow Ga aren't actually in the forms. The reason may be simple. While some throws you can do as a form. There's a lot more that really need a partner in order to learn. In those cases having it in a form just isn't practical

 

[jobo]

Thank you for proving my point

it rather proves my point of people looking ( and sometimes '' finding;'')things that armt there.

its like people who play music backwards to find hidden truth, sooner or later it will sort of sound like something

i said kata is not with out value, its good for building fluidity from one technique to the next, it can be useful exercise. it can be a dance worthy of being watched by a crowd. it can be moving meditation, it can release endorphins. what it doesnt seem to do is make you a better fighter, beyond the things above


but trying to make it any more than that is completely subjective, fine if you want to be delusional, but you cant really say im wrong when you have nothing more than feeling to back up your claim

 

[Dirty Dog]

I trained for about 4 years, I think? Something like that. I got to red stripe but left because I wanted something that offered more than what I was getting in TKD, which was mostly kicking drills. It was WTF TKD, heavy focus on point sparring. A few times I was invited to participate in black belt class, and watched many black belt tests, going as high as sixth degree, and never saw anyone train or get tested on grappling. A few basic self defense techniques out of Hapkido were incorporated into the training, such as the wrist lock, but never was part of the testing. It was sport based point sparring, that was the main focus, using kicks to score points.

I got a lot out of TKD and it was a great way for me to start my martial arts training. It just got to a point where I wanted to do more than what I was gonna get in my TKD training.

So you trained in one very sport oriented school for a short time and from that you feel like you can draw conclusions about all of TKD? OK. Sure.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you really want to look at forms / kata as the dictionary of techniques... then you need to rework all of them. Make it so that each technique only exists one time in all your forms / kata. Where ever a technique shows up a second time, replace it with a new technique... so that you now have a long list of unique techniques. Now your art will have a much longer list of techniques in it. But, you will have lost the most important pieces of Long Fist.

In Karate, you have downward block and punch. If that combo exist in your form only once, you can drill it left and right as many times as you need.

You don't need to have

- downward block and punch.
- turn around downward block and punch.
- ...

To repeat the same combo in your forms can only make you to grow fat. It won't make you to grow tall.

Form is used to record information. To record information more than once won't make sense.

To record "This is a book. This is a book" twice in your book won't add in more information compare to if you just record "This is a book" once.

 

[drop bear]

Dig deeper. If not in your school see if another school within the same system has it.

Another oldie but goodie. I don't know any martial art system that doesn't have this

Going by that video. I would say they have no grappling.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't know a martial art system that doesn't have the basic hip throw ...

If your form (text books) doesn't contain "flying side kick" but you tell your students that your style has "flying side kick", how can you prove it?

You can do it doesn't mean your style has it. You have to "record" it in your style so the future generation will say, "My style has flying side kick".

You can record it in your

1. form, or
2. drill.

IMO, just to record it in your drill is hard to prove that you didn't pick it up from other MA system. But if you record in your form, there won't be any future argument for that.

A: Dear master! Does our style have flying side kick?
B: Yes! It's in one of our forms.

Can I say that Chinese wrestling system has all these kicks just by showing this clip? I don't think I can.

 

[wab25]

In Karate, you have downward block and punch. If that combo exist in your form only once, you can drill it left and right as many times as you need.

You don't need to have

- downward block and punch.
- turn around downward block and punch.
- ...

You have just detailed the first Shotokan Kata. Well... you do that combo 3 times, then do 3 front punches and then that combo 3 more times, then the three straight punches again and then that kata 3 more times.

To repeat the same combo in your forms can only make you to grow fat. It won't make you to grow tall.

You are correct... if you are looking at this in terms of making your list long. Even your Chinese Long Fist forms contain front kick all over the place... which is much more than once.

Form is used to record information. To record information more than once won't make sense.

To record "This is a book. This is a book" twice in your book won't add in more information compare to if you just record "This is a book" once.

You are looking at forms / kata as a dictionary. Your goal seems to make the dictionary as long as possible.

Aside from our country line dance friend here... most of the rest of us do not use forms / kata as a dictionary. As was pointed out earlier, they are more like essays or poems or text books... which are used to teach the core principles of the art. Once you get the core principles down, you can express them with any words/techniques that you like or that the situation calls for.

I like the saying: I do not fear the man that has practiced 10,000 different kicks once... I do fear the man that has practiced 1 kick 10,000 times.

 

[wab25]

If your form (text books) doesn't contain "flying side kick" but you tell your students that your style has "flying side kick", how can you prove it?

I just have to show them how to use "flying side kick" in harmony with the core principles of my art.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Even your Chinese Long Fist forms contain front kick all over the place... which is much more than once.

In the 108 moves Yang Taiji form, the "ward off, pull back, press forward, push, double pulling, single whip" combo has been repeated multiple times. One can condense the 108 moves Taiji form into just 48 moves Taiji form. Today, people has condensed the Taiji form into 36 moves, or even 24 moves.

IMO, since one can always repeat the form over and over. To duplicate a combo in the form will add no extra value.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Going by that video. I would say they have no grappling.

It's showing one video showing 1 technique. I can't be quick to say there's no grappling. It's like saying my shadow boxing training sucks based off that one or 2 videos that I posted. Grappling training in school that I taught looks similar to that, during training. We go through the motions in a drill like manner and then move to the application of it. It doesn't look like BJJ or Judo where the drill and application are done as one.

If you saw how I train my throws, take downs and grappling in Jow Ga you would say the same thing. But if you watch me in the video you will see that I'm not as robotic or artificial.