My style doesn't have this

[Kung Fu Wang]

Now, I can't add it to our style as I am not a 9th or 10th degree master, but that does not mean I can't do it, or teach it.

Since my long fist system doesn't have roundhouse kick, I have change my long fist form and replace a front kick by a roundhouse kick. Since the front kick exists all over the place in my long fist forms, one less front kick won't make any difference, but one extra roundhouse kick does make a big difference.

Before I did that, I had to say that my long fist system didn't have roundhouse kick. After I did that, I can now declare that my long fist system does have roundhouse kick.

The nice thing is my students can say that their long fist system has roundhouse kick.

Old long fist Tantui form #7 with front kick.

New long fist Tantui form #7 with roundhouse kick.

my style, for example, does not have spinning back kicks in our basic curriculum or kata.

I also brought in both

- hook kick. and
- spin back kick

into my long fist system.

 

[Dirty Dog]

There are some styles that clearly don't have elements such as TKD not having grappling.

This statement is incorrect. Grappling certainly isn't emphasized, but it certainly exists.

 

[drop bear]

thats a tactic, or an objective.whats the Philosophy ?,

Philosophy has to be more that drag them to the floor or punch them to be worthy of the term Philosophy, other wise its just people putting deep meaning into things where non exists

In BJJ it is called meta.

E.g..

Otherwise I am Meh about cohesion. If it all works it it cohesive.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This statement is incorrect. Grappling certainly isn't emphasized, but it certainly exists.

Well, half the statement is incorrect. Some styles don't have specific elements (certain styles of Aikido don't have punching in them, boxing doesn't have kicks, kickboxing has very limited grappling, a lot of styles and substyles don't have weapons, some weapon styles don't do unarmed for whatever reason). There is often some sort of reason for that-either because it's not useful for the style (I'm sure there are archery styles out there that do not teach kicks, because the chances you'll need to use kicks while doing archery are pretty low), or because it's not related to the goal (if I'm doing boxing as a sport, with a goal of becoming a golden gloves boxer, I don't need to learn ground-grappling).

As for TKD as a whole, I assume you're right. I wouldn't be surprised though to find that there is a substyle of TKD that for whatever reason does not do grappling in any aspect. You can argue if they can still call themselves TKD after removing a part of it, but that's a debate for another thread..

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not that I ever saw. Perhaps your training is different than mine was.

Well how much training did you do? It's not a priority, so it's rarely taught at lower ranks. But I can confirm that it is taught in the ITF (and I presume it's various offshoots), the Kukkiwon, and the Moo Duk Kwan.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, half the statement is incorrect. Some styles don't have specific elements (certain styles of Aikido don't have punching in them, boxing doesn't have kicks, kickboxing has very limited grappling, a lot of styles and substyles don't have weapons, some weapon styles don't do unarmed for whatever reason). There is often some sort of reason for that-either because it's not useful for the style (I'm sure there are archery styles out there that do not teach kicks, because the chances you'll need to use kicks while doing archery are pretty low), or because it's not related to the goal (if I'm doing boxing as a sport, with a goal of becoming a golden gloves boxer, I don't need to learn ground-grappling).

That's why I only quoted the portion where he said TKD doesn't teach grappling.

As for TKD as a whole, I assume you're right. I wouldn't be surprised though to find that there is a substyle of TKD that for whatever reason does not do grappling in any aspect. You can argue if they can still call themselves TKD after removing a part of it, but that's a debate for another thread..

Many KKW schools are so heavily focused on WTF sparring that I wouldn't be at all surprised if they didn't teach grappling. But the techniques are still a part of KKW TKD.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There are some styles that clearly don't have elements such as TKD not having grappling

TKD has grappling, but only some schools teach it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This statement is incorrect. Grappling certainly isn't emphasized, but it certainly exists.

This is why my first response is always to look deeper. I'm still learning new grappling techniques from Jow Ga that I previously didn't realize exist. There's a always a question about what exists vs what is taught vs what is emphasized.

 

[jobo]

Again, you entirely missed my premise. The flaw lays elsewhere. Are you just being purposely provocative or obtuse? Perhaps metaphor and satire are not your strongpoints. My post had NOTHING to do with male/female. That was just a humorous (obviously not for you) way to bring up the fact that by looking between the lines/techniques and not taking the obvious moves of kata at face value, and by looking deeper as JowGaoWolf suggested, a lot more meaning for the kata can be found.

Going back to the title subject of this thread, by looking deeper into one's style, one may find the style does indeed have what you thought was missing (throws, breaks, locks. takedowns...) That was my premise. All of these are present in most Okinawan kata, though by just watching them they are not readily recognized.

As for individual techniques, my style, for example, does not have spinning back kicks in our basic curriculum or kata. Now, I can't add it to our style as I am not a 9th or 10th degree master, but that does not mean I can't do it, or teach it. I don't know of any style that prohibits particular (non-lethal) techniques. If I like it, and it fits well with other techniques in the style, why not?

i dont under stand the point of analysing katas thing , i really dont

katas are so vague that you can read anything you want to see in to them, theres no way of knowing if your correct or not, AND especially, if your short of a particular defence or attack, put it in irrespective of if its in the kata or not

what do you do if you cant find anything that even vaguely resembles what your looking for, just carry on with an in complete art just because its authentically bad

 

[Deleted member 39746]

As for TKD as a whole, I assume you're right. I wouldn't be surprised though to find that there is a substyle of TKD that for whatever reason does not do grappling in any aspect. You can argue if they can still call themselves TKD after removing a part of it, but that's a debate for another thread..

i think they are like karate in that aspect. they do it in Kata, but the application may be forgotten down some lines/overlooked. And some people are bringing it back/use it, others not so much.

And the last point, just goes down the no true scotsman fallacy line. Is something really this, if its removed this, etc. (so not a fun time for anyone involved usually)

i dont under stand the point of analysing katas thing , i really dont

katas are so vague that you can read anything you want to see in to them, theres no way of knowing if your correct or not, AND especially, if your short of a particular defence or attack, put it in irrespective of if its in the kata or not

what do you do if you cant find anything that even vaguely resembles what your looking for, just carry on with an in complete art just because its authentically bad

As far as i have gotten, and its not restricted to kata, its a recording system for a seqence or a particular movement. Application is meant to have many diffrent routes and nueances pending person. Thats the entire point of bunkai and sparring, to dissect how to use the kata for yourself, thats also why your not meant to soley use kata.

If you view it like that, its hard to go wrong, if it has abolsute no use you can see at all, then you could probbly sucessfully remove it for yourself/what you teach. (latter seems iffy as somone else may see some use in it, and not in something else you teach)

Addendum: this is for the ones not made to be a body mechnics training tool, or a condtioning training tool, those you probbly wont find a direct application to fighting in as thats not what they are for.

 

[wab25]

Since my long fist system doesn't have roundhouse kick, I have change my long fist form and replace a front kick by a roundhouse kick. Since the front kick exists all over the place in my long fist forms, one less front kick won't make any difference, but one extra roundhouse kick does make a big difference.

This is exactly why I feel it is wrong to look at the forms / kata of an art as if they are the dictionary of techniques for that art. Honestly, when was the last time you found a dictionary, where every other definition was for the word "elephant?" Dictionaries do not define the same word over and over and over...

If you really want to look at forms / kata as the dictionary of techniques... then you need to rework all of them. Make it so that each technique only exists one time in all your forms / kata. Where ever a technique shows up a second time, replace it with a new technique... so that you now have a long list of unique techniques. Now your art will have a much longer list of techniques in it. But, you will have lost the most important pieces of Long Fist.

 

[jobo]

i think they are like karate in that aspect. they do it in Kata, but the application may be forgotten down some lines/overlooked. And some people are bringing it back/use it, others not so much.

And the last point, just goes down the no true scotsman fallacy line. Is something really this, if its removed this, etc. (so not a fun time for anyone involved usually)



As far as i have gotten, and its not restricted to kata, its a recording system for a seqence or a particular movement. Application is meant to have many diffrent routes and nueances pending person. Thats the entire point of bunkai and sparring, to dissect how to use the kata for yourself, thats also why your not meant to soley use kata.

If you view it like that, its hard to go wrong, if it has abolsute no use you can see at all, then you could probbly sucessfully remove it for yourself/what you teach. (latter seems iffy as somone else may see some use in it, and not in something else you teach)

Addendum: this is for the ones not made to be a body mechnics training tool, or a condtioning training tool, those you probbly wont find a direct application to fighting in as thats not what they are for.

its not a recording system for movement, other wise it would have recorded the movement and there wouldn't be this silly looking for secret applications nonsense

 

[Deleted member 39746]

its not a recording system for movement, other wise it would have recorded the movement and there wouldn't be this silly looking for secret applications nonsense

Interpritation, answered that. solutions are diffrent for everyone. Thats why the bunkai is not set in stone but the kata is. Kata is the basic movement foundation to be adapted.

Its not "secret application" either. You have to found out how it works for you, if it does at all, and what works for you. Only a mcdojo would have you belive it is secret, at least in the way its purposely hidden and not about self discovery.

 

[jobo]

Interpritation, answered that. solutions are diffrent for everyone. Thats why the bunkai is not set in stone but the kata is. Kata is the basic movement foundation to be adapted.

Its not "secret application" either. You have to found out how it works for you, if it does at all, and what works for you. Only a mcdojo would have you belive it is secret, at least in the way its purposely hidden and not about self discovery.

kata is a dance, thats not with out value, but its no more than that, arts that dont do kata are certainly no worse than those that do, its difficult to make a case that it aids fighting efficiency

bunkai is people looking for things, that are quite probably not there to be found, beyond the obvious

as i said above, if you need a throw or a block, put one in. it matters not if its in the kata, obviously or subjectively. just install one to deal with the issue you have discovered needs addressing

 

[Deleted member 39746]

kata is a dance, thats not with out value, but its no more than that, arts that dont do kata are certainly no worse than those that do, its difficult to make a case that it aids fighting efficiency

bunkai is people looking for things, that are quite probably not there to be found, beyond the obvious

as i said above, if you need a throw or a block, put one in. it matters not if its in the kata, obviously or subjectively. just install one to deal with the issue you have discovered needs addressing

i never claimed it was anything more than a component/ a method for recording movements/teaching movements. Bunkai, is the application of recorded movements through kata that can be applied. this is with sparring as well.

Never disagreed with the last point, but if we take karate for example, its throwing was erased. So it probbly all ready added said throw in, and lost it, and you can probbly find said throw in kata/records. So you can look internally and find the required information, you dont always have to look externally. As for if you want to add something "foreign" in, that depends on what you want from martial arts and the arts themselves. No point in taking HEMA and adding in lots of judo to make the throwing better, thats not what HEMA is about. (by all means you can modernise and use a HEMA system as a base, but thats not normal for it at all, hell you could try and make european martial arts great again and make the most badass fighting system and use HEMA as a base to compete with asian dominance) If the throw is required, it will be created, imported, rediscovered or what ever. How ever its done is pending situation.


As for combat sports, its sort of going a similar way/has a similar issue.
A good example i have is, take boxing for example. Boxercise is boxing being used for exercise/recreation and the erasure of some/all of the combative elements of boxing.(half of boxing pretty much) Now just add in a lot of time, a langauge barrier, succession disputes and dodgy doccumentation and you have what has been done to karate and other systems.

Hell, you even have Boxing going from no holds fighting, bare knuckled, throwing and clinching allowed etc, to gloved punching with time limits.

 

[jobo]

i never claimed it was anything more than a component/ a method for recording movements/teaching movements. Bunkai, is the application of recorded movements through kata that can be applied. this is with sparring as well.

Never disagreed with the last point, but if we take karate for example, its throwing was erased. So it probbly all ready added said throw in, and lost it, and you can probbly find said throw in kata/records. So you can look internally and find the required information, you dont always have to look externally. As for if you want to add something "foreign" in, that depends on what you want from martial arts and the arts themselves. No point in taking HEMA and adding in lots of judo to make the throwing better, thats not what HEMA is about. (by all means you can modernise and use a HEMA system as a base, but thats not normal for it at all, hell you could try and make european martial arts great again and make the most badass fighting system and use HEMA as a base to compete with asian dominance) If the throw is required, it will be created, imported, rediscovered or what ever. How ever its done is pending situation.


As for combat sports, its sort of going a similar way/has a similar issue.
A good example i have is, take boxing for example. Boxercise is boxing being used for exercise/recreation and the erasure of some/all of the combative elements of boxing.(half of boxing pretty much) Now just add in a lot of time, a langauge barrier, succession disputes and dodgy doccumentation and you have what has been done to karate and other systems.

Hell, you even have Boxing going from no holds fighting, bare knuckled, throwing and clinching allowed etc, to gloved punching with time limits.

if you not disagreeing i have no idea why yoi wrote such a long post, not disagreeing

nb who told you karate doesnt have throws in it?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

if you not disagreeing i have no idea why yoi wrote such a long post, not disagreeing

nb who told you karate doesnt have throws in it?

Eleboration/discussion.

They have been deleted from karate when they got recognised/were tyring to be recognised by the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai (yes i did look that up), down to Judo covering it and them not wanting it to compete with judo over throws. Wado Ryu, predominately uses Jujutsu throws etc in it.

They are coming back though, i dont mean deleted as in not present at all i mean focus was driven from them and some people dont know karate has throws in it default.

 

[jobo]

Eleboration/discussion.

They have been deleted from karate when they got recognised/were tyring to be recognised by the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai (yes i did look that up), down to Judo covering it and them not wanting it to compete with judo over throws. Wado Ryu, predominately uses Jujutsu throws etc in it.

They are coming back though, i dont mean deleted as in not present at all i mean focus was driven from them and some people dont know karate has throws in it default.

the people who dont know , will be people who have never dome karate, so that YOU


karate is such an over arching term, that saying anything conclusive, like it doesnt have head punches or grappling or throws or locks or knees and elbows, is very likely to be wrong

 

[Deleted member 39746]

the people who dont know , will be people who have never dome karate, so that YOU

But i do know, so by that metric i must have done karate.(and anyone who does know, must have done karate by that same metric also)

Karate denotes a specfic group of "styles" though. And there are some several million practioneers of it,with that comes deviation. Also, karate is no Taijutsu.

 

[jobo]

But i do know, so by that metric i must have done karate.(and anyone who does know, must have done karate by that same metric also)

Karate denotes a specfic group of "styles" though. And there are some several million practioneers of it,with that comes deviation. Also, karate is no Taijutsu.

but you didn't know till i told you so