Most Dangerous (as in Useless) Self-Defense Technique Taught?

Flying Crane

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Exactly. Some stuff just isn't that good, and neither are some arts. There are too many people who want to make excuses for both.
and I can certainly understand the desire to defend it. After all, it is something they have put a lot of time and effort into, and there is this concept that this stuff takes a lot of work and a long time in order to get good at it, so maybe they figure they are still in that process. Yes, that is true. It's not comfortable to have someone point out what might be kind of stupid about it. So people jump to its defense, and that's ok, I get it. But people do need to be able to step back and let the BS alarm go off, and take notice and don't ignore the alarm.

Some things are bad ideas and some of those bad ideas do manage to find a place in some of what we do. I'm sure we could all find something in our own systems that we feel pretty "iffy" about.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Honestly tho, I think often the difference isn't clear to the teachers. They act like this stuff would work, like it is reasonable and makes sense. And contrary to some of the claims, it is my opinion that there are often no real principles buried within there, that this could possibly teach effectively.
That comes from folks never testing. The techniques reasonably, or even having a good imagination to see what is likely to work.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Possibly, although I think it's more likely because the technique isn't designed to unbalance the attacker as whoever came up with it is a clueless fuckwit.
There are several easy opportunities to unbalance at the beginning of that. I'm not willing to assume the technique was designed to avoid them. I can't reasonably assess much about a technique as applied by a beginner.
 

Flying Crane

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That comes from folks never testing. The techniques reasonably, or even having a good
Well, that can be the issue, or part of it. I still see this even with people who are otherwise very good, skilled knowledgeable folks, people I wouldn't want to face off against. It the bad material is part of a formal curriculum, a system they were taught, and there is a reluctance to delete anything from the system. There can be reverence for the system itself, the idea that it cannot be altered.

Well, I believe otherwise. Ok, alterations should be done carefully and thoughtfully and not by just anyone. But they can and often should, be done.

Again, this stuff was not handed down by the gods. It is not holy or sacred.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Well, that can be the issue, or part of it. I still see this even with people who are otherwise very good, skilled knowledgeable folks, people I wouldn't want to face off against. It the bad material is part of a formal curriculum, a system they were taught, and there is a reluctance to delete anything from the system. There can be reverence for the system itself, the idea that it cannot be altered.

Well, I believe otherwise. Ok, alterations should be done carefully and thoughtfully and not by just anyone. But they can and often should, be done.

Again, this stuff was not handed down by the gods. It is not holy or sacred.
Agreed, entirely. I was referring to your comment that some instructors seem to believe those bits are directly applicable. If they are competent at fighting, I don't see how they could be fooled by those bits. They might keep them out of reverence for the past, but they'll at least be aware of the lack of solid application.
 

Flying Crane

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Agreed, entirely. I was referring to your comment that some instructors seem to believe those bits are directly applicable. If they are competent at fighting, I don't see how they could be fooled by those bits. They might keep them out of reverence for the past, but they'll at least be aware of the lack of solid application.
Yeah, and I think they keep it out of reverence to a system, and also are reluctant to acknowledge that a few items in there are really kind of stupid.
 

hoshin1600

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Grab the live side of the blade.
Turn your back on your attacker.
Leave him on balance.
This clip is full of nonsense. The first mistake is the set up. Starting the technique from knife on the neck like that is un realistic , it's stagnant and devoid of any actual context.
 

MI_martialist

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So, you're claiming that training physical self-defense techniques is useless to the point of being dangerous? Care to back that claim with some evidence? In evidence counter to that assertion, there are many instances of people using their martial arts training to defend themselves effectively.

Now, you could debate whether time spent in MA training for SD is as effective as other self-protection training, and we'd have a different discussion.
- Correct!!
 

drop bear

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Agreed, entirely. I was referring to your comment that some instructors seem to believe those bits are directly applicable. If they are competent at fighting, I don't see how they could be fooled by those bits. They might keep them out of reverence for the past, but they'll at least be aware of the lack of solid application.

Some things work for a particular person. But are not generally considered a very sensible option.

Fighting has a lot mote elements to it than just good technique. Otherwise everybody could become a champion fighter.
 

Juany118

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I don't know. Some of the nuns I knew were frightening (Catholic school). I wouldn't want them restraining me if I got out of hand.

Yeah, the Sisters of St Joseph, or as I liked to call them, "The Samurai nuns" could be brutal.

That said, to the OP's point, I would say "kick him in the balls". Once the hormone dump happens in a real fight the testicles shrink and even partially retract into the pelvic area. They are also instinctively protected by the person and, to add onto it, there is actually a delay in the pain response. The only real way to reliably cause pain via that contact point in a fight is to grab em and "use it like a handle", that can be quite effective in my experience.

Striking to that general area does work, if you can hit, but (again just my experience) you should do an attack that is more "straight in" to the pelvic bone, the "up" into is harder to execute and, again just my opinion, less effective The "straight in" attack will actually be quite effective on women as well due to all the nerves in that area.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Well, that can be the issue, or part of it. I still see this even with people who are otherwise very good, skilled knowledgeable folks, people I wouldn't want to face off against. It the bad material is part of a formal curriculum, a system they were taught, and there is a reluctance to delete anything from the system. There can be reverence for the system itself, the idea that it cannot be altered.

Well, I believe otherwise. Ok, alterations should be done carefully and thoughtfully and not by just anyone. But they can and often should, be done.

Again, this stuff was not handed down by the gods. It is not holy or sacred.
Yeah. There have been multiple times I have seen things in either forms or direct techniques that don't make sense to me, from people whom I know are good martial artists (including techniques in systems I practice). I ask for clarification of why you would do it, or what situations it would be better than x. Generally the answer is "I don't know", or a frank "It's not (useful/better), but it's part of the system, so I learned it." When it's in my system that's followed with "and you have to learn it too." Frustrates the living hell out of me that either myself or fellow martial artists are wasting time on things they/we don't understand or that are ineffective.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Well, that can be the issue, or part of it. I still see this even with people who are otherwise very good, skilled knowledgeable folks, people I wouldn't want to face off against. It the bad material is part of a formal curriculum, a system they were taught, and there is a reluctance to delete anything from the system. There can be reverence for the system itself, the idea that it cannot be altered.

Well, I believe otherwise. Ok, alterations should be done carefully and thoughtfully and not by just anyone. But they can and often should, be done.

Again, this stuff was not handed down by the gods. It is not holy or sacred.
Yeah. There have been multiple times I have seen things in either forms or direct techniques that don't make sense to me, from people whom I know are good martial artists (including techniques in systems I practice). I ask for clarification of why you would do it, or what situations it would be better than x. Generally the answer is "I don't know", or a frank "It's not (useful/better), but it's part of the system, so I learned it." When it's in my system that's followed with "and you have to learn it too." Frustrates the living hell out of me that either myself or fellow martial artists are wasting time on things they/we don't understand or that are ineffective.
 

Gerry Seymour

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This clip is full of nonsense. The first mistake is the set up. Starting the technique from knife on the neck like that is un realistic , it's stagnant and devoid of any actual context.
It's an attack I've been asked about by many students. I think they watch too many movies.
 

hoshin1600

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It's an attack I've been asked about by many students. I think they watch too many movies.
My issue is not that the knife on neck won't happen, it just that it doesn't happen in a vacuum. You defense has to begin before that point in time. When training static like that you don't get a feel for what will actually be happening. The attacker wasn't pushing in on her or pulling her, he was just standing there like a statue. Momentum will change everything. And in all probability render that specific technique unusable.
 

Gerry Seymour

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My issue is not that the knife on neck won't happen, it just that it doesn't happen in a vacuum. You defense has to begin before that point in time. When training static like that you don't get a feel for what will actually be happening. The attacker wasn't pushing in on her or pulling her, he was just standing there like a statue. Momentum will change everything. And in all probability render that specific technique unusable.
Well, with a beginner, for something like that you probably do have to go static. It's not a beginner move, so asking a beginner to do it requires removing some of the complications. You're right of course that it's really unlikely it would come as a static moment (unless you allow it to settle to that point by waiting long enough). My point was that it's a fairly unlikely attack in any case, so should probably only show up once in a blue moon in class, as a matter of applying principles in a more complex situation.
 

JP3

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The oft-revered statement (heard it literally hundreds of times in class from novice-beginner female students), "I'll just kick 'em in the nuts."

Well.... let's see. What is the single most commonly learned defensive skill known to the entire human male population, learned because of incidents, accidental and on purpose, at home, on school playgrounds, in gym class, walking down the street with other boys around -- or for that matter in school hallways?

Strike blurs towards groin. Hips immediately twist, knee crossing centerline. Strike thus blocked and foiled.

I'm not saying that groin strikes don't work, they certainly do. But... "I'll just kick 'em in the nuts..." No, you probably won't.
 

hoshin1600

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Well, with a beginner, for something like that you probably do have to go static. It's not a beginner move, so asking a beginner to do it requires removing some of the complications. You're right of course that it's really unlikely it would come as a static moment (unless you allow it to settle to that point by waiting long enough). My point was that it's a fairly unlikely attack in any case, so should probably only show up once in a blue moon in class, as a matter of applying principles in a more complex situation.
I agree that an assailant will almost never do that. The only instance I can rationalize a criminal doing that is to a women if he is trying to gain compliance in a rape situation. In this video they are standing so to me the context would be he is trying to move the victim to crime scene #2. Thus be moving closer to her and pushing or pulling her. So to your point yes I understand removing aspects for beginners for training, but under a logical context the technique shown just doesn't seem to fit or be applicable......
Edit....ok I watched the full video again and in the second half he does say "I know you don't want to fight but come with me"
So I was wrong, he does have a context. But it's just not realistically played out. This seems to be for tv show or something so I can't blame the guy for that. All that being said I would have to actually try this for myself, it just looks to easy for the guy to pull the knife back and start stabbing.
 
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drop bear

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It's an attack I've been asked about by many students. I think they watch too many movies.

It happens a fair bit if your aim with the knife isn't really to kill the guy but to gain a compliance of some kind.

And this could be for a lot of reasons. But say for example someone is stomping your friends head off and you are trying to get in there. He has a friend with a knife in you neck keeping you out of it.

I mentioned a local one that went from a threaten to an attack.

Knife attack on two people

Now i did manage to chat to the victim and the attacker separately afterwards.

The attacker claimed he was just threatening the guy when he slipped. The victim was still munted a year after.
 
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KangTsai

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The oft-revered statement (heard it literally hundreds of times in class from novice-beginner female students), "I'll just kick 'em in the nuts."

Well.... let's see. What is the single most commonly learned defensive skill known to the entire human male population, learned because of incidents, accidental and on purpose, at home, on school playgrounds, in gym class, walking down the street with other boys around -- or for that matter in school hallways?

Strike blurs towards groin. Hips immediately twist, knee crossing centerline. Strike thus blocked and foiled.

I'm not saying that groin strikes don't work, they certainly do. But... "I'll just kick 'em in the nuts..." No, you probably won't.
I have a hip twist to spinning back kick drill just to prepare for one.
 

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