MMA vs. TMA Training Methods: Is One Better Than The Other?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by MJS, Feb 3, 2010.

  1. K831

    K831 Black Belt

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    Again, when comparing the two training methodologies separately, those who have done both are moot point!

    Every time a strength for MMA is mentioned, it is fair game to assume that the TMA'ist could have never replicated that strength in his own training? However, every strength presented for the TMA methodology is met with "well, many MMA/BJJ folks do both". LOL and why do they? Because the MMA/BJJ methodology on its own lacked that component? Isn't that what we are discussing? The strengths and weaknesses of each, individually and separate?
     
  2. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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  3. K831

    K831 Black Belt

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    I agree completely, with the exception that I do not consider open handed techniques to be anything other than core basics and “meat and potatoes.”

    Otherwise, yes, a student with strong basics is far better off than a student with a gamut of techniques that are all sloppy.



    Again, I agree completely.

    Here is an example of the distinction I was making between MMA “basics” and a more TMA/SD oriented set of “basics”.
    The Escrima guys I am currently working with look at everything from the point of view that your attacker will likely produce an edged or impact weapon.

    Every set of “basic” strikes, blocks, parries, footwork etc is evaluated through that lens and from that context. It changes the how some “meat and potatoes” basics are practiced and applied.

    This is not the case in any MMA school I have ever been in, and yet, I think the escrima guys present a superior methodology for SD, and yet we are only discussing “basics”.

    Conversely, the early focus on drilling basics (heavy bag, mitts etc) and early sparring and contact found in MMA gyms is something that should be used to fundamentally change the training approach of most all TMA's.
     
  4. K831

    K831 Black Belt

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  5. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    I agree to a point, however, sparring alone, with no other RW type training, isn't going to have as much as an advantage as one would think.
     
  6. Nolerama

    Nolerama Master Black Belt

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    I think aliveness is the key.

    It's not about hard contact per se. It's about being able to incorporate what you're drilling in class in an athletic contest.

    All altercations are athletic contests.

    The MA applied is the strategy.

    You tell a student how to do X-technique in a dead pattern drill for years and they'll know how to do it eventually. Exactly the way you taught said student.

    The X-factors within an altercation (from sparring to SD) will probably interfere with the "perfection" of that tech's execution. The opponent is too close. The opponent changed levels. The opponent pulled a knife. It doesn't matter. While the student might have the right idea of using X-technique in an altercation, they're trained to shoot the bullseye instead of the overall target. Once X-tech fails another X-factor is introduced: frustration, which we all know is not a good thing to have in an altercation.

    Now, you introduce X-technique in isolation (even start with a dead pattern drill), and then "spar" using that technique with progressive resistance (this is why communication between training partners is key) you introduce a level of aliveness that sensitizes the student to many of the X-factors that might occur during an altercation. A good teacher might introduce X-factors in him/herself (I like to play w/ a trainer knife in grappling situations some times).

    This can apply to all MAs, and many MA instructors get this concept. Yes, the dead pattern drills look really cool, and are part of the "art" and should be learned if you're learning an art, but in terms of function and applicability, aliveness must be introduced to the training regimen on a regular basis.

    One might argue about training eye gouges, groin kicks, and other "dirty tricks", but a huge tenant within ALL MAs is Position Before Submission. You'll find that stuff when you're in the proper positioning, and definitely not from a disadvantageous one. Besides, going for an eye gouge with an opponent who has side control, with your back to him is probably going to escalate the situation (pull out a knife, gun, bring another person into the fight) instead of dropping him to the ground.

    There's no difference between TMA and MMA training (I definitely agree with Tez on that), but there's definitely a difference between training from coach to coach, instructor to instructor.

    You can be book smart, but never apply that. The same thing goes for MAs.
     
  7. MattJ

    MattJ Brown Belt

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    ?????????

    Then why did you bring it up? You are the one claiming that boxers and MMA people will not know/forget to use non-sporting techniques. You are invalidating your own argument.

    Because TMA/RBSD was far more prevalent than MMA before 1993, and probably still is?

    See above. I am not strictly discussing the arts in a vacuum, seeing as actual people practice them, bringing with them various levels of experience. You have used the same line of reasoning yourself in 'defending' TMA/RBSD by noting that some of 'them' have had real fights, competed in MMA, etc. Those experiences count, I'm assuming? It works both ways.
     
  8. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    So, if I'm reading this right, it sounds like you're basing this on the Gracie 90% rule then. On the flip side, you have those people that say that not all fights go to the ground.

    So let me ask you this....just playing devils advocate here for a moment. If we take what you claim the Graices point is....that if you can't grapple and defeat 1 person, how can you defend against more than 1, then technically, I think its safe to say that Gracie has proven that they can do just what you claim...take someone to the ground, outgrapple them and win. So if they can do that, what is their method of dealing with more than 1? Its clear that they are capable of beating 1, using the rule set that they have in play.
     
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  9. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    You do realize that I was replying to the part of his post in which he said:

    "To the topic, which training is better? The one that gets you and keeps you training. Martial skill is more dependent upon how the person trains and with what mindset they train then it does with where and what style they train in."

    I'm fully aware that both camps claim to be the best, have the best methods, etc., so you're not telling me anything new. I was simply looking to discuss the methods of both and if one really is better than the other. :)
     
  10. K831

    K831 Black Belt

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    I honestly don't know what you're talking bout here. You have a knack for coming out of left field.

    I did not bring up people who do both in defense of anything. I mentioned that someone who only trains in boxing, or only trains in grappling, or only trains for a specific rule set, isn't going to have neuro-muscular memory sufficient to ract under stress with a technique he hasn't drilled, simply because it would be a better SD technique.

    Your response to that was "Lots of MMA guy also do TMA so they have those techniques" to which I responded, "then it is a moot point" the op asked for a discussion comparing methodologies separately, not as one.

    Now you are saying I invalidated my own argument by comparing them as one? Ok.....


    [/quote]
     
  11. MattJ

    MattJ Brown Belt

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    My bad. You had mentioned TMA/RBSD folk who had competed MMA, been in real fights, etc. Seemed to invalidate your own argument disallowing MMA people that had other experience as well.
     
  12. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    I beg to differ.



    Many of the people I currently train with, have or still do, work in environments, in which their skills have saved their tails. I'm sure however, there're some that would not fit that category though.



    To a point maybe, but all the time...I'd have to say no. Ex: You have an officer training scenarios in a firearms training simulator, ie: a controlled environment. They're testing themselves. If a mistake is made, the officer is not really going to die.

    An officer faces himself in a live fire situation. There is no room for mistakes, as 1 mistake could mean the end of his life.

    Apply the ring theory to the RW and the same setting as I just described with the officer, applies.

    I agree that it is the person, not the art. I've said this many times as well....any art has the potential to work, its how its trained that matters. :)

    Out of curiosity, seeing that you're obviously more in favor of the MMA methods, and thats fine, as this is what I was looking to discuss, but how do you gear your training?
     
  13. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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  14. K831

    K831 Black Belt

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    I think we are just getting our wires crossed. Yes, many have both experiences and I agree with your summation there. However, in discussing the OP's original question, I think we need to look at them separately, then we can see the strengths and weaknesses of both MMA and TMA training methodologies as they stand on their own.
     
  15. Nolerama

    Nolerama Master Black Belt

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    Unless you could lay out each methodology in terms of philosophy, cross-reference technique and cite examples, making broad generalizations like that would sound like they were based in assumption and personal inflection and not real experience.
     
  16. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Agreed.




    Likewise. :)






    Agreed. So, I suppose, both methods have their pluses, as I said, but depending on the goal of the person.....the appropriate method should be used IMO.




    Agreed. Many of the people who I train with, are still around to teach and tell the stories of what happened, so something obviously worked. :)


    Agreed again.




    This is what I dislike....the comments that make the claim that "If it works in the ring, it'll work in the street."

    Thus the reason why I always say that both MMA and TMA should look at each other and reap the benefits from oneanother.




    Not sure how people can think that ALL TMA claims are untested. Is it because there're no tapes of recorded fights? No 'records', as if thats the deciding factor.
     
  17. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    In all honesty, this is not a realistic comparison. TMA is a large, amorphous term that includes weapon arts, dedicated grappling arts, dedicated striking arts, internal arts, hybrid arts, arts that are essentially about preserving an ancient tradition, arts that are dedicated to sport and competition, arts that really are ancient and arts that are younger than I am.

    By nature, you will have training methods in TMA that will run the gamut from highly physical and realistic to highly physical preparation for competition to highly physical for good cardio and fitness to mildly physical but very realistic to hardly physical at all.

    By contrast, because MMA is geared around a fairly uniform set of rules, a limited choice of settings (octagon or cage), and geared towards athleticism (helpful for a tournament fight of any art), the training methods will be more uniform and defined.

    Some TMAs will train the same way as MMA fighters do. Some will not. The comparison cannot be made without a specific art or specific group being used instead of just "TMA". Even some subgroups would be too broad for a direct comparison. After all, aren't there like a hundred different ryu's of karate with numerous training philosophies and skill sets?

    MMA vs. Taekwondo is a comparison that can be made: both have a sportive element for one. There are different varieties of taekwondoists, but there are not so many as to make direct comparison impossible,and there are different varieties of MMA athletes too, I am sure, but not that many that a direct comparison becomes impossible.

    Not knocking your thread, by the way; I just find the effort to compare MMA, a fairly narrow (near as I can tell) category to TMA, a category so broad as to include almost anything, to be unworkable.

    Daniel
     
  18. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    I was actually responding to what Tez stated. She said, if I'm reading correctly, that she trains both, the same way. The typical things that we'll see in a MMA fight, ie: a front kick/push kick, a roundhouse kick, a jab, cross, hook, uppercut, the basic hand and foot techniques, are all found in pretty much every art out there. However, the way that they're thrown will vary. I highly doubt I kick the way a TKD person would, and the same would go for Muay Thai, yet, the kicks are relatively the same, but the way I kick, vs. TKD, vs. MT, will vary.

    I breakdown the 2 this way:

    MMA: What we see in the cage. Anyone who trains for the ring, amature competition or pro events.

    TMA: I lump everyone else into this group. TKD, Shotokan, Goju, Kenpo, etc. While those arts do compete, usually in a tournament setting, point sparring, etc., while those arts and some of their practitioners, may add in (such as myself :)) things from MMA, ie: grappling, conditioning, etc., their focus is not the same as what you'd see of a MMAist.

    So yes, the TMA person will focus on a number of things, ie: weapons, kata, SD, etc., the MMA skill set is smaller. Smaller meaning, they are not focusing on weapons, kata or things of that nature, because it doesnt fit in with their goals. Nothing wrong with that, as I'm simply just trying to seperate the 2.

    Hope that clarified. :)
     
  19. Xinglu

    Xinglu Black Belt

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    There is no accounting for ignorant statements. On either side of the discussion ;)

    You're in fantasy land if you think that good TMA guys haven't been gunned down. Furthermore, you're in fantasy land if you think there is anything your TMA can do for you against a gun anywhere past a meter (and I'm being generous, in my direct experience, most can't pull it off even at a meter away). I have an open challenge to anyone, let's load up an air soft gun (or paintball) and I'll prove to you that mid to long range gun defense techniques are nothing more then a fantasy requiring more luck than skill to pull off.


    Just like "If it works in the Dojo it will work on the street" The answer to both is: Some times it will and sometimes it won't. It is about the individual and the situation at that point.

    People seem to be forgetting that MMA is MIXED MAs, one fighters mixture may be different from another's... the focus is on blending them into one useable package. It could be Xingyi/Judo/BJJ/and boxing, or it could be kenpo/wrestling, or even WC/Sanda/and JJJ. Even in these big MMA gyms, you're getting bits and pieces of many TMAs.

    I see MMA as the competitive evolution of what Bruce Lee started (and unfortunately never had the opportunity to complete or refine). I would bet solid money that he would be a supporter of what MMA has done for the MA community.

    Having trained in several TMAs myself, I find my personal fighting style to be a blend. Although I do Kenpo, I do not fight like a Kenpoka. I do Neijia, yet I am not entirely a Neijia fighter. I have recently taken up BJJ, but I'm not entirely a BJJ player. I don't think the way most in those arts do, nor do I want to. I am influenced by each but not defined by each.

    I also want to address something someone on here said (I can't remember who and I don't want to post twice: some one said or implied that The Gracies couldn't take on multiple opponents which further implies that BJJ cannot be applied in a multiple attacker situation.

    I have a buddy of mine from the Army, we were mugged (or they attempted) one night. At the time my only MA experience was Kenpo and a little Xingyi, he was a BJJ player all the way. There were five of them two of us I took out two of the guys and he took out three. He never once went to the ground, but he applied his BJJ while standing! He achieved by positioning (much like aikido) and using quick high percentage movements.

    So having had this experience, I always think ":rolleyes:yeah okay, not a practical SD system" It is all about how YOU train and what YOUR mindset is, even if your school/gym/dojo doesn't train it, there is no reason you can't do it on your own or after class! -OR- find a place that does!
     
  20. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    LOL, I find it funny, because I think you're misunderstanding my posts here. Please, show me where I said that a TMA student would not get shot? Show me where I said or made a claim that I was an expert in gun disarms? If you read what I was replying to, rather than making assumptions, you'd have seen that I was replying to the statement SgtMac made here. I got the distinct impression from that post, that he was basically saying that those mentioned folks, would always come out on top. Also, as I've said many times, at least there are some quality disarms out there, that will offer something. I'd rather have that, than nothing at all. *edit* For clarification, I do agree, that past arms reach, you're pretty much up the creek. Within arms reach...yes, IMO, you do stand a good chance of getting control or a disarm.


    Oh no, there ya go again, painting me with that same brush. :D. Seriously though....if you've really taken the time to read any of my posts, you'd have seen that when it comes to people making claims that things will definately work, I'm the first to say that I dont care whether it works for them, I want to make sure it works for ME, and I"M the one doing it.

    Whos forgetting? I know I'm not. :D. I agree with this, said it many times. I've said that while things from TMA are in MMA, the application is whats different.

    I agree.

    Kenpo, Arnis, BJJ...those are the 3 that I train, those are the 3 that I feel blend very well for me. :) I dont mix them to make up my own style, but after training the Kenpo and Arnis for as long as I have, when I'm running thru techs., sometimes it just happens. I'm not thinking, "I'm going to do this or that." again, it just happens. :)

    It was probably me that made that comment, but anyways.....yup, I've said that many times as well...that some BJJ techs., with slight modification, can be applied while standing. Sure, I see nothing wrong with doing that, using 1 person as a momentary shield against someone else, etc.

    Agreed. Again, I've said the same thing. Guess the big difference is, are people willing to take on that task? Are they willing to go that extra step? If so, great, then yes, I'd be much more inclined to say that those people would stand a better chance. But if you dont, then no, I stand by what I've said before.123
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2010

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