MMA vs. TMA Training Methods: Is One Better Than The Other?

Again, when comparing the two training methodologies separately, those who have done both are moot point!

Every time a strength for MMA is mentioned, it is fair game to assume that the TMA'ist could have never replicated that strength in his own training? However, every strength presented for the TMA methodology is met with "well, many MMA/BJJ folks do both". LOL and why do they? Because the MMA/BJJ methodology on its own lacked that component? Isn't that what we are discussing? The strengths and weaknesses of each, individually and separate?

 

I agree completely, with the exception that I do not consider open handed techniques to be anything other than core basics and “meat and potatoes.”

Otherwise, yes, a student with strong basics is far better off than a student with a gamut of techniques that are all sloppy.

Again, I agree completely.

Here is an example of the distinction I was making between MMA “basics” and a more TMA/SD oriented set of “basics”.
The Escrima guys I am currently working with look at everything from the point of view that your attacker will likely produce an edged or impact weapon.

Every set of “basic” strikes, blocks, parries, footwork etc is evaluated through that lens and from that context. It changes the how some “meat and potatoes” basics are practiced and applied.

This is not the case in any MMA school I have ever been in, and yet, I think the escrima guys present a superior methodology for SD, and yet we are only discussing “basics”.

Conversely, the early focus on drilling basics (heavy bag, mitts etc) and early sparring and contact found in MMA gyms is something that should be used to fundamentally change the training approach of most all TMA's.

 

I think aliveness is the key.

It's not about hard contact per se. It's about being able to incorporate what you're drilling in class in an athletic contest.

All altercations are athletic contests.

The MA applied is the strategy.

You tell a student how to do X-technique in a dead pattern drill for years and they'll know how to do it eventually. Exactly the way you taught said student.

The X-factors within an altercation (from sparring to SD) will probably interfere with the "perfection" of that tech's execution. The opponent is too close. The opponent changed levels. The opponent pulled a knife. It doesn't matter. While the student might have the right idea of using X-technique in an altercation, they're trained to shoot the bullseye instead of the overall target. Once X-tech fails another X-factor is introduced: frustration, which we all know is not a good thing to have in an altercation.

Now, you introduce X-technique in isolation (even start with a dead pattern drill), and then "spar" using that technique with progressive resistance (this is why communication between training partners is key) you introduce a level of aliveness that sensitizes the student to many of the X-factors that might occur during an altercation. A good teacher might introduce X-factors in him/herself (I like to play w/ a trainer knife in grappling situations some times).

This can apply to all MAs, and many MA instructors get this concept. Yes, the dead pattern drills look really cool, and are part of the "art" and should be learned if you're learning an art, but in terms of function and applicability, aliveness must be introduced to the training regimen on a regular basis.

One might argue about training eye gouges, groin kicks, and other "dirty tricks", but a huge tenant within ALL MAs is Position Before Submission. You'll find that stuff when you're in the proper positioning, and definitely not from a disadvantageous one. Besides, going for an eye gouge with an opponent who has side control, with your back to him is probably going to escalate the situation (pull out a knife, gun, bring another person into the fight) instead of dropping him to the ground.

There's no difference between TMA and MMA training (I definitely agree with Tez on that), but there's definitely a difference between training from coach to coach, instructor to instructor.

You can be book smart, but never apply that. The same thing goes for MAs.

 

?????????

Then why did you bring it up? You are the one claiming that boxers and MMA people will not know/forget to use non-sporting techniques. You are invalidating your own argument.

Because TMA/RBSD was far more prevalent than MMA before 1993, and probably still is?

See above. I am not strictly discussing the arts in a vacuum, seeing as actual people practice them, bringing with them various levels of experience. You have used the same line of reasoning yourself in 'defending' TMA/RBSD by noting that some of 'them' have had real fights, competed in MMA, etc. Those experiences count, I'm assuming? It works both ways.

 

I honestly don't know what you're talking bout here. You have a knack for coming out of left field.

I did not bring up people who do both in defense of anything. I mentioned that someone who only trains in boxing, or only trains in grappling, or only trains for a specific rule set, isn't going to have neuro-muscular memory sufficient to ract under stress with a technique he hasn't drilled, simply because it would be a better SD technique.

Your response to that was "Lots of MMA guy also do TMA so they have those techniques" to which I responded, "then it is a moot point" the op asked for a discussion comparing methodologies separately, not as one.

Now you are saying I invalidated my own argument by comparing them as one? Ok.....


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My bad. You had mentioned TMA/RBSD folk who had competed MMA, been in real fights, etc. Seemed to invalidate your own argument disallowing MMA people that had other experience as well.

 

I think we are just getting our wires crossed. Yes, many have both experiences and I agree with your summation there. However, in discussing the OP's original question, I think we need to look at them separately, then we can see the strengths and weaknesses of both MMA and TMA training methodologies as they stand on their own.

 

Unless you could lay out each methodology in terms of philosophy, cross-reference technique and cite examples, making broad generalizations like that would sound like they were based in assumption and personal inflection and not real experience.

 

In all honesty, this is not a realistic comparison. TMA is a large, amorphous term that includes weapon arts, dedicated grappling arts, dedicated striking arts, internal arts, hybrid arts, arts that are essentially about preserving an ancient tradition, arts that are dedicated to sport and competition, arts that really are ancient and arts that are younger than I am.

By nature, you will have training methods in TMA that will run the gamut from highly physical and realistic to highly physical preparation for competition to highly physical for good cardio and fitness to mildly physical but very realistic to hardly physical at all.

By contrast, because MMA is geared around a fairly uniform set of rules, a limited choice of settings (octagon or cage), and geared towards athleticism (helpful for a tournament fight of any art), the training methods will be more uniform and defined.

Some TMAs will train the same way as MMA fighters do. Some will not. The comparison cannot be made without a specific art or specific group being used instead of just "TMA". Even some subgroups would be too broad for a direct comparison. After all, aren't there like a hundred different ryu's of karate with numerous training philosophies and skill sets?

MMA vs. Taekwondo is a comparison that can be made: both have a sportive element for one. There are different varieties of taekwondoists, but there are not so many as to make direct comparison impossible,and there are different varieties of MMA athletes too, I am sure, but not that many that a direct comparison becomes impossible.

Not knocking your thread, by the way; I just find the effort to compare MMA, a fairly narrow (near as I can tell) category to TMA, a category so broad as to include almost anything, to be unworkable.

Daniel

 

There is no accounting for ignorant statements. On either side of the discussion

You're in fantasy land if you think that good TMA guys haven't been gunned down. Furthermore, you're in fantasy land if you think there is anything your TMA can do for you against a gun anywhere past a meter (and I'm being generous, in my direct experience, most can't pull it off even at a meter away). I have an open challenge to anyone, let's load up an air soft gun (or paintball) and I'll prove to you that mid to long range gun defense techniques are nothing more then a fantasy requiring more luck than skill to pull off.

Just like "If it works in the Dojo it will work on the street" The answer to both is: Some times it will and sometimes it won't. It is about the individual and the situation at that point.

People seem to be forgetting that MMA is MIXED MAs, one fighters mixture may be different from another's... the focus is on blending them into one useable package. It could be Xingyi/Judo/BJJ/and boxing, or it could be kenpo/wrestling, or even WC/Sanda/and JJJ. Even in these big MMA gyms, you're getting bits and pieces of many TMAs.

I see MMA as the competitive evolution of what Bruce Lee started (and unfortunately never had the opportunity to complete or refine). I would bet solid money that he would be a supporter of what MMA has done for the MA community.

Having trained in several TMAs myself, I find my personal fighting style to be a blend. Although I do Kenpo, I do not fight like a Kenpoka. I do Neijia, yet I am not entirely a Neijia fighter. I have recently taken up BJJ, but I'm not entirely a BJJ player. I don't think the way most in those arts do, nor do I want to. I am influenced by each but not defined by each.

I also want to address something someone on here said (I can't remember who and I don't want to post twice: some one said or implied that The Gracies couldn't take on multiple opponents which further implies that BJJ cannot be applied in a multiple attacker situation.

I have a buddy of mine from the Army, we were mugged (or they attempted) one night. At the time my only MA experience was Kenpo and a little Xingyi, he was a BJJ player all the way. There were five of them two of us I took out two of the guys and he took out three. He never once went to the ground, but he applied his BJJ while standing! He achieved by positioning (much like aikido) and using quick high percentage movements.

So having had this experience, I always think "yeah okay, not a practical SD system" It is all about how YOU train and what YOUR mindset is, even if your school/gym/dojo doesn't train it, there is no reason you can't do it on your own or after class! -OR- find a place that does!