Misconceptions about non-contact sparring.

[drop bear]

I didn't say it was a trend, all I did was show you two top class fighters who don't practice "full-contact" sparring, and my personal knowledge of kickboxers who are relatively successful and train the same way, but whether or not its a trend i've no idea. I'm assuming you have information to support the idea that it's just an exception?


And that is related to his fighting ability how? That might be an apt comparison if I was making an argument about hair color or something that clearly isn't related, but how one practices is much more related to their fighting ability then what they do with their piss.

Two fighters is not a trend. Combined with my personal knowledge of fighters who don't train that way. Correlation does not imply causation.

Machida drinks his own pee for the health benefits might work for him. Probably not going to try it myself unless it becomes a trend.

But of course this means op would be fine to jump in a full contact match training non contact?

Then he should do it and test his theory. And yours..



The peecdri

 

[ballen0351]

Two fighters is not a trend. Combined with my personal knowledge of fighters who don't train that way. Correlation does not imply causation.

And?

Machida drinks his own pee for the health benefits might work for him. Probably not going to try it myself unless it becomes a trend.

irrelevant

But of course this means op would be fine to jump in a full contact match training non contact?

Then he should do it and test his theory. And yours..

Why should he do it? I don't spar full contact I don't actually spar at all in the sense you claim. BUT Ive for darn sure used my skills in real life against real bad guys really trying to hurt me and I didn't have a ref, cut man, time limits, weight classes, predetermined time and place, time to stretch and train, doc check ups prior to and after, a nice fence to keep others from jumping in, ect ect ect and guess what Im still here. So again your point is irrelevent

 

[RTKDCMB]

But of course this means op would be fine to jump in a full contact match training non contact?

Then he should do it and test his theory. And yours..

This theory has passed many tests in the only arena that means a damn to us - real life attacks from people in the street wishing to do serious harm to our students and instructors, not in a safe controlled environment of a sporting competition. I did hear about one of our former black belts who went to a full contact school, did one back kick on a kicking shield, knocked the holder on his butt and was told not to come back because he was "too dangerous".

Machida drinks his own pee for the health benefits might work for him. Probably not going to try it myself unless it becomes a trend.

So you might drink pee if it becomes a trend? That says a lot.

 

[K-man]

You see advanced karate people doing punching like that video shows during sparring? I've never seen that and I've been in Taekwon-Do for 28 years. Have you seen it at tournaments? In class sparring? I haven't seen it in either of those settings. Our sparring tends to be non-contact at white belt level and then progresses to semi-contact around 8th gup. I have never even seen 10 gups punch like that in sparring.

The punching that was shown in the video seems to be simply to demonstrate the proper body mechanics for a punch under ideal conditions (which sparring would certainly not qualify as). It's certainly not meant to be used as an example of how to punch during a sparring match.

Pax,

Chris

Then why do you teach something that you wouldn't use in a fight? Then you get into a sparring match and do this.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9NKOvNjDVLA

Is it any wonder that MMA people call BS on this type of fighting?

You see, I would argue that you might teach a punch as in the video to illustrate some of the technical aspects but that it has very little to do with bio mechanics. If this was the best way of punching under ideal conditions why don't boxers punch that way? Practitioners need to ask what is the purpose of the kihon and not blindly assume that what is shown in basic training is what is the best way to utilise a technique in a fight.

As for TKD, I haven't watched a lot and what I have seen had very little punching anyway. For example in this clip there is hardly a punch thrown. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ADxy-4OVLoY

Here is a clip demonstrating how to punch in TKD. I ask you, would a boxer punch anything like that?

Then you take it into a match.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8fXqKVyPzyM

Not a punch to be seen from the TKD guy and he doesn't protect his head at all. Obviously there was a rule saying no head shots or the guy wouldn't have lasted 15 seconds. But the karate guy is not throwing 'karate' punches.

Now we get to Lyota Machida. He has a karate background (Shotokan) which is renowned for its deep stances.
Look at this fight and see if you see a typical 'karate punch' from a typical 'karate stance'. It isn't going to happen.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zpRcJ8rCDAA

Why not if the structure and form of the kihon is so good?

Of course the answer is that there is a huge difference between kihon and advanced forms of fighting and many schools don't ever progress beyond the kihon. And that too is easy to explain. I don't want this to sound as if I'm blowing wind up DB's backside but they are never tested beyond there own environment and their own rules. That is still not to say they couldn't use their training for self defence, just that I believe it could be more effective.

But to bring this back into the context of the OP. If most of these guys that I have shown were tested full contact they would fail dismally because I believe their performance demonstrates their training is not good. That is not to say that they need to spar full contact, just that their training is not realistic. Evidence that you can be effective without sparring is demonstrated by Robbie Lawler who, as kempodisciple posted, doesn't spar contact at all in training for his fights.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7D_crm7JW8k

There doesn't seem to be much lacking in his training.
:asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

You have to be a certain kind of fighter to stand and trade. Some can some can't. You can't really teach it.

The only way to realise that is to get hit.

I would never teach someone to stand and trade like that, it would be very counterproductive for self defence. I would rather teach someone how to not get hit.

 

[Transk53]

You have to be a certain kind of fighter to stand and trade. Some can some can't. You can't really teach it.

The only way to realise that is to get hit.

I concur. Knowing your pain threshold translates both ways. That is why I like a full contact sparring sesh,you measure the input and output. You take a hit, whatever. It does take a certain mind set though.

 

[K-man]

I concur. Knowing your pain threshold translates both ways. That is why I like a full contact sparring sesh,you measure the input and output. You take a hit, whatever. It does take a certain mind set though.

Why do you need to spar to take a hit?
:asian:

 

[Transk53]

Why do you need to spar to take a hit?
:asian:

What need? Just like sparring.

EDIT> Not clear. No, don't need to spar to take a hit. It is partly the environment I grew up in and also have taken a lot of hits that did not bother me.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Then why do you teach something that you wouldn't use in a fight? Then you get into a sparring match and do this.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9NKOvNjDVLA

The fighters in that clip were throwing punches from their guard position, not from their hips. Additionally, they were constantly in motion, not in a static position in a stance that fully faced their opponent. That doesn't qualify as doing "the same thing" as the first video, which is what you said before and was the comment to which I replied.

The basic mechanics of the punch, however, is the same as it is in the first video. It's not a question of teaching something you wouldn't use in a fight. The first video was simply a teaching tool for people to understand and practice basic body mechanics. You might think it's not as efficient as some other teaching method but you're free to teach however you want at your school.

Is it any wonder that MMA people call BS on this type of fighting?

It's been my experience that there's very little some MMA proponents wont "call BS" on. I'm not really concerned with that. They do great at what they do and karate folks do great at what they do.

You see, I would argue that you might teach a punch as in the video to illustrate some of the technical aspects but that it has very little to do with bio mechanics. If this was the best way of punching under ideal conditions why don't boxers punch that way? Practitioners need to ask what is the purpose of the kihon and not blindly assume that what is shown in basic training is what is the best way to utilise a technique in a fight.

I don't know why boxers don't do it. But then, I don't know why everybody doesn't learn how to kick exactly like Taekwon-Doin do. Or rather, I do It' because people come up with a system that works for them and their students. If you think boxing is the best for punching, including being able to seamlessly be integrated with the rest of the techniques and the general body mechanics of your system then by all means adopt its methods.

I agree with you about the nature of basics. If you don't know what their purpose is it will be a problem. But that purpose will vary depending on the style in question. You shouldn't judge one style by the underlying philosophies of another style, IMO.

As for TKD, I haven't watched a lot and what I have seen had very little punching anyway. For example in this clip there is hardly a punch thrown. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ADxy-4OVLoY

I have very little to say about that style since it isn't, IMO, Taekwon-Do. It's a sport that uses the name Taekwondo and is heavily regulated by the World Taekwondo Federation. It's quite unlike the Taekwon-Do developed by Gen. Choi and promulgated by the ITF. The clip that you posted, however, is not an example of a martial art, not really. It's an example of a combative sporting event played under very specific rules developed to promote kicking techniques not the use of punches (seriously, this is a major topic of debate in the TKD section of this and pretty much every MA BBS on the internet). I am not a fan at all of the WTF and their rules but it does get people to get very adept at kicking. If you've never been kicked by a high level WTF fighter I suggest you give it a try sometime. It's not what I would call fun.

Here is a clip demonstrating how to punch in TKD. I ask you, would a boxer punch anything like that?

No clip demonstrating how to punch in Taekwon-Do here.

Then you take it into a match.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8fXqKVyPzyM

Not a punch to be seen from the TKD guy and he doesn't protect his head at all. Obviously there was a rule saying no head shots or the guy wouldn't have lasted 15 seconds. But the karate guy is not throwing 'karate' punches.

That's a great example of a WTF fighter being stupid enough to fight what appears to be a kyokushin (or one of its derivatives) guy under kyokushin rules If you're going to do that the best thing to do would be to spend an adequate amount of time practicing under those rules so you know what's coming and how to deal with it. Undr WTF rules, for example, you can't grab someone, But that's very common in kyokushin fighting. The WTF guy didn't know how to counter that at all, let alone use that tactic himself for an advantage. D

Do you really think the kyokushin fighter would do any better under WTF rule?

The karate fighter sure looked like he was using kyokushin style punches to me. He wasn't chambering at his hip from a full facing position, of course, but we really already covered that topic.

Now we get to Lyota Machida. He has a karate background (Shotokan) which is renowned for its deep stances.
Look at this fight and see if you see a typical 'karate punch' from a typical 'karate stance'. It isn't going to happen.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zpRcJ8rCDAA

Why not if the structure and form of the kihon is so good?

Of course the answer is that there is a huge difference between kihon and advanced forms of fighting and many schools don't ever progress beyond the kihon. And that too is easy to explain. I don't want this to sound as if I'm blowing wind up DB's backside but they are never tested beyond there own environment and their own rules. That is still not to say they couldn't use their training for self defence, just that I believe it could be more effective.

So then why are we having this discussion if you seem to, if not agree with me in substance, at least acknowledge there is a difference between doing basics and fighting? If you think you have a better way of doing things more power to you. Get to doing them and start posting videos of yourself and your students so people here can see your system and how it stack up to what they do.

But to bring this back into the context of the OP. If most of these guys that I have shown were tested full contact they would fail dismally because I believe their performance demonstrates their training is not good.

I don't know what their training is like or whether it's good or not good because I have never seen them train. Nor do I know what the goal of their training is. I can say that I have been largely unimpressed with a lot of what I saw in the videos you linked to in your last post. But then, that might have been by design on your part

That is not to say that they need to spar full contact, just that their training is not realistic. Evidence that you can be effective without sparring is demonstrated by Robbie Lawler who, as kempodisciple posted, doesn't spar contact at all in training for his fights.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7D_crm7JW8k

There doesn't seem to be much lacking in his training.
:asian:

Yes, which is, I think, the main point that the OP was making.

But let's keep in mind that being "effective" is going to depend on the rues under which you fight as much as your training methods (which will be geared towards those rules). Mr. Lawler does great under MMA rules, I'm sure. If he fought a WTF match I don't know how he would fare. It would depend on too many variables to address in a single post here. Note, I didn't say he would do poorly, I said I didn't know how he would do. But like the video you posted of the WTF fighter going against the kyokushin fighter and obviously not hving any experience fighting under those rules, a lot of it would depend on how much time he put in familiarizing himself with them. As a professional fighter I imagine Mr. Lawler would be savvy enough to spend some time doing so The WTF fighter seen above was obviously not one of the WTF elites (they're usually busy training for events like the WTF WC's and the Olympics, not fighting matches against a karate fighter, though).

Pax,

Chris

 

[MJS]

I thought I would do my part and try to dispel some misconceptions some people have about non-contact sparring.

Misconception #1 - Non-contact means there is no physical contact at all.

This is simply not true, in sparring people are in constant motion, you aim for the person but the person is constantly blocking, dodging and deflecting and will thus not be there to receive the contact. When a strike or kick comes at you and you choose to block it has to physically blocked. You also occasionally jam kicks to get in close and every now and then you can make contact with a kick or a strike in a controlled manner without injuring your sparring partner.

Misconception #2 - Punches and kicks are pulled.

Also not true, during correct non-contact sparring all techniques are fully extended and controlled with power. You just focus your strike just short of the vital areas. The difference between contact and non-contact sparring is only distance, if you punch to the jaw and stop the punch 1 or 2cm in front and your opponent then they are fine, but step in slightly closer instead and your opponent is injured. When black belts are sparring with each other the distance between the strike and the target gets quite close but when adults are sparring children, black belts are sparring junior belts or when beginners are sparring with each other the space between them is increased for added safety. Non-contact sparring where the practitioners pull strikes does not allow the technique to be applied properly; it is easier to adjust your distance than it is to adjust your technique.

Misconception #3- If you only train non-contact you won't be able to deal with pain or take a hit.

Also not true, being able to withstand a blow is a result of conditioning both mental and physical as well as the state of mind. In full contact competitions, when a fighter gets kicked in the groin, they usually have to stop sparring or take a rest period. Outside in the street if you get kicked in the groin or poked in the eye you have to keep going no matter what or you will get hurt or killed, you don't get a 5 minute rest period. I have seen others get punched in the head accidentally without slowing them down and once a young lady going for her junior black belt broke her ankle half way through and still went on to spar the black belts a few minutes later. So if you are doing non-contact sparring and get accidentally hit you can still keep going - you just have to think about it as a free massage and toughening exercise. There sometimes is a tendency to freeze when hit but in all my years of experience I have not seen any evidence to suggest that this reaction is any more prevalent with non-contact sparring than with full contact sparring, at least not in the art I study. The hit either hurts enough to make you react or it doesn’t, there is no special freezing reaction for non-contact sparring that does not exist for full contact sparring.

Misconception #4 – With full contact you can condition yourself to take a hit.

This true, but only to a certain extent. Full contact fighters (MMA fighters for example) do toughen themselves up quite a bit and can sometimes seem almost invulnerable but they still get knocked down/out with one good shot. They condition their bodies to be able to take hits but only in certain areas but how do you condition yourself to take a hit to the groin, the throat or the knee? – You can’t, not without damaging something. I once saw a UFC fight where the fighter were getting hit often in the head and body but when one of the fighters was hit in the solar plexus the fight ended immediately. While it is true that with full contact sparring you can learn to handle getting hit more than you would if you only did non-contact sparring it does not mean that it is the only way.

Misconception #5 – We don’t train full contact because it would be too dangerous.

This is either true or false, depending on what you mean when you say it. Some instructors from some schools would say this in order to brag and prop themselves up. Any art, whether it be a purely self defence art or a sport, will be too dangerous for full contact sparring if they use their full range of techniques. A full power front kick to the groin, side kick to the side of the knee or knife hand chop to the throat would certainly not be safe, that’s why martial arts competitions have rules.
In order to do full contact sparring and make it safe you have to sacrifice something – either you have to limit your targets (i.e. no punching to the head, striking to the neck, groin kicks), or you have to use protective equipment. Limiting your targets can make your art less effective for self defence because you often have to train yourself out of the instincts you need. Instead of kicking to the groin you kick to the inner thigh (less effective) and when you accidentally kick to the groin you are reluctant to kick low in case you get disqualified. Training in this manner can give you a false sense of security as you may sometimes intentionally take hits in order to get one in yourself. In self defence you can’t afford to get hit even once (many people have died from a single punch when they hit their head on the ground). Wearing protective gear can also give you a false sense of security – getting hit bone on bone is a far cry from getting hit with a glove on your protective gear. Martial artists who only spar with protective gear sometimes get hit in those spots and believe that that they can take a hit there. It’s not the same, getting hit bone on bone hurts a lot more and has a higher shock value.

Some martial arts only do non-contact sparring because they refuse to modify their techniques to make them safe for full contact sparring. They choose to use the techniques the way they would in self defence but with the distance modified to make it safe instead of the other 2 methods. They want to remain in top, uninjured, condition at all times so that when they are attacked they can have the best chance to defend themselves at any time. I don’t know about anyone else but I joined a martial art so that people WOULDN’T punch me in the head. What is the point of learning self defence if you just get beaten up in class? Also when a full contact fighter gets hurt in the ring or the cage and then gets attacked on their way home then how can they defend themselves properly?

Misconception #6 – If you only train non-contact then you will instinctively not make contact in a real fight

This is usually stated by full contact martial artists, sometimes you will hear that if you train non-contact then you are training to miss. This is simply not true, you use focus mitts, kicking shields and punching bags to practice making contact with your techniques. In contact sparring you do this on an opponent (which is probably more dynamic than just on the pads) and you have to learn correct distancing. When you spar non-contact you still have to learn correct distancing, it just has a slight translational (mathematical term) spatial arrangement. There have been a few instances where instructors and students from my, non-contact, style have gotten, through no fault of their own, into physical altercations and were able to dispatch their attacker(s) with no problems connecting with strikes. On 2 separate occasions our black belts (1 male, 1 female) were attacked by 5 people and not only did they defeat them all but they did so very quickly. So their instincts that they learned through non-contact sparring served them very well.

Misconception #7 – Non-contact martial artists do not do any conditioning

The conditioning usually done by the non-contact martial artists is centered on the forearms and hands. The wrists are conditioned by never using gloves or hand wraps when doing pad work and lots of pushups. The fists are conditioned by knuckle pushups on wooden floors and occasionally concrete and bitumen. There are jumping knuckle pushups and twisting knuckle pushups and walking on your knuckles in pushup position on the wooden floor is also good. Punching hard but flexible objects is good too. Breaking boards (no spacers) and tiles is also a great way to condition the fists. The forearms are conditioned through blocking and certain forearm toughening exercises with a partner or hitting yourself with a hard flexible object, such as a piece of doweling, on the shins and forearms to deaden the nerves.

The body is conditioned by strengthening the muscles; many different types of sit-ups are not only good for strengthening the stomach area but it also helps to support the back. Holding the bridge position is good for strengthening the core. Learning to tense the body at the right time can help you to absorb some blows to the body (this is one of the reasons for the kihap). When performing a strike or kick the whole body is tensed at the moment of impact, not just the arm or leg. Getting hit accidentally in sparring or hurting yourself during breaking techniques can provide additional conditioning
Although the level of conditioning in a non-contact martial art will never approach that of a full contact style (except for fist and forearm conditioning) there are many things a non-contact martial artist can do to condition themselves for the rigors of self defence.

Misconception #8 – Full contact martial arts are the only way to learn how to hit targets well

Hitting the target is all about accuracy, precision, timing, speed and power – this comes from technique and practice. My schools philosophy, which I share, rates the importance of the qualities required for a successful strike, kick or block as:
1 – Technique – This is something that is sadly lacking in many schools nowadays, both with contact sports and non-contact martial arts even at the higher levels. I have seen 3[SUP]rd[/SUP], 4[SUP]th[/SUP] and 5[SUP]th[/SUP] dans on YouTube with very poor technique, no power or snap in their strikes. I once trained with a child who was a certified black belt who was barely at yellow belt standard. He was a good student who did very well in class and picked things up quickly though. Many of the combat arts who only do ‘alive training’, who criticize the static training techniques and patterns often have poor technique and often resort to wild swings and do not look where they punch. It is better to only have to hit an attacker once than to have to hit them 20 times (I once saw a UFC bout where one guy hit the other guy over 200 times and still required a judge’s decision to win).

2 – Accuracy and precision –is next in importance, it is no good having the best technique in the world if you cannot hit the target. Due to the lack of static exercises in some of the combat sports the accuracy and precision is often limited. When you have the option to win on points, referee stoppage or judge’s decision you can afford to take your time a bit. You can study your opponent, develop a strategy and pick at them. For self defence you have to be deadly accurate because you may only get one chance to finish the attacker. You have to size up your attacker instantly as well as watch out for his friends. Being accurate and precise does not help as much if your technique is no good.
3 – Speed and power – After developing technique, accuracy and precision then you can develop speed and power, without good technique this is a lot more difficult. If you can hit your target every time with good technique then that will not do you any good if you do not have good speed and power.

One advantage of full contact sparring is that you have instant feedback on whether your kick or strike has the desired effect; with non-contact sparring it is a bit more theoretical. When you do a kick in a full contact it is often stopped before it is fully extended and this can lead to improper distancing. For sidekicks and back kicks if your leg is not straight at the end then you will get some recoil and some of the power will not be transferred to your target. Sometimes when hitting the target students often lean into the strike too much; this happens to non-contact martial artists during pad work but rarely during sparring. Often when full contact fighters go to hit the target and miss they just about fall over. So with non-contact sparring you learn better balance and distancing, so long as you do not make any significant errors.

Conclusions – Advantages and disadvantages of non-contact sparring- may not be a complete list

The disadvantages of non-contact sparring;

• Lower level of body conditioning and toughening.
• More difficult to gain confidence in your effectiveness.
• More difficult to adjust your strikes according to your opponents reaction to getting hit (i.e. Kick makes contact to floating ribs doubles over opponent’s body and changes orientation of chest and head).

The advantages of non-contact sparring;

• No need for protective gear.
• No need to ban techniques or limit targets.
• Lower incidence of injury therefore safer for children and families.
• Allows for better balance and distancing (if done properly).
• Adults and children can spar together.
• Higher degree of control.

The only way to really know how effective a martial art is and what will work in a real life situation is to go out and get in to real fights on a daily basis and to use your skills to actually try to hurt other people. However, unless someone invents the Holodeck (ala Star Trek), this is highly immoral and logistically impossible as you would soon run out of students. There are 2 basic ways martial arts try to approximate real life situations in their sparring; contact sparring and non-contact sparring. All martial arts that use sparring are compromise between these 2 extremes in order to learn and to remain safe. Contact martial arts choose to keep the contact elements but need to either limit the techniques that can be used, the targets that can be struck or use protective equipment. Non-contact martial arts choose to keep all of the techniques and, not limit the targets but take out most of the contact elements. Many school, choose to train non-contact because they believe that the benefits of non-contact sparring outweigh its shortcomings.

There are more contact martial arts around than non-contact martial arts and some of the less enlightened full contact fighters and martial artists seem to think, and have in fact stated, that non-contact sparring is useless. People often dismiss what they do not understand so I hope I have been able to shed some light on the subject of non-contact sparring and its application for self defence. I have never trained in competition sparring or full contact martial arts/combat sports so there is an element of bias involved, as there is with anyone’s point of view so always remember that there are 3 sides to every story, YOURS, MINE AND THE TRUTH.

Nice thread! I know I'm a bit late to the party, but I'll toss in my thoughts. Personally, I think that both have their place, and both are important. I feel that too much or too little of each could have negative effects. When I trained in Kenpo, we had both no and light to moderate contact. When I left Kenpo and joined the Kyokushin dojo I currently train at, it was quite an eye opener. Less padding ( we wear those cloth hand and shin pads during sparring) and the contact is much harder than I ever did in any of the Kenpo schools I was a part of.

When we spar now, it's heavy contact. More than once, after a sparring session, I've woken up the next morning, feeling like I got hit by a truck. LOL. Personally, I wish that we would do some lighter contact, so as to allow everyone to work on specific things. Oh sure, we do drills that do allow us the opportunity to do that, but I also feel that we should do some lighter sparring, so we can test the drill in a more 'live' environment. On the flip side, I feel that being able to take a hard shot is important. In the event you found yourself in a confrontation outside of the dojo, that guy isn't going to be pulling any punches. If you're not used to or have never taken a hard shot in the dojo, you're going to be in for a rude awakening.

So, as I said, I feel that both have their pros and cons. It's nice having some lighter sessions, where you're still getting a good workout, still making some light contact, but at the same time, giving your body a break from the hard beating.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

How bout this? Both fighters don't spar full contact, one doesn't even spar. Oddly enough, looks like they didn't have any cardio or conditioning issues.
Johny Hendricks vs. Robbie Lawler: How Safe Sparring May Change Contact Sports | Bleacher Report

I'm very interested in how Hendricks and Lawler are approaching their training. I think it's much smarter than the old Militech gym's approach of knocking people out during routine training.

That said, both Hendricks and Lawler have done plenty of full-contact sparring and fighting in the past. They have that experience to draw on, which means they already understand correct distancing, how to relax under full contact pressure, how an opponent's body reacts to contact, and what it's like to receive and deliver a barrage of full-contact blows. I don't think someone who had never sparred or fought with contact would have that success.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sorry if I am being a bit thick here, but would not cardio be separate anyway?

Sparring full-contact takes a lot more energy than light or no contact. It takes more energy to hit a solid object. It drains more energy when you get hit hard. It takes more energy when you clinch and/or push against an opponent. That's not even including the fatigue that comes from the stress of worrying about getting hit. Fighters who are accustomed to full-contact can get used to it and learn to relax, but it still burns more cardio than punching air.

BTW - "full contact" is a bit of a misnomer in most cases. The fighters at the Militech gym notoriously did spar truly full-contact - meaning their sparring sessions were like actual fights and participants frequently got knocked out. I'm not convinced they were doping themselves any favors with that approach. What most boxers/kickboxers/MMA fighters do could better be described as "hard" or "solid" contact. They strike with correct distancing and body mechanics to deliver a solid jolt, but they don't put that extra oomph in an attempt to give their sparring partners a concussion.

 

[Transk53]

Sparring full-contact takes a lot more energy than light or no contact. It takes more energy to hit a solid object. It drains more energy when you get hit hard. It takes more energy when you clinch and/or push against an opponent. That's not even including the fatigue that comes from the stress of worrying about getting hit. Fighters who are accustomed to full-contact can get used to it and learn to relax, but it still burns more cardio than punching air.

BTW - "full contact" is a bit of a misnomer in most cases. The fighters at the Militech gym notoriously did spar truly full-contact - meaning their sparring sessions were like actual fights and participants frequently got knocked out. I'm not convinced they were doping themselves any favors with that approach. What most boxers/kickboxers/MMA fighters do could better be described as "hard" or "solid" contact. They strike with correct distancing and body mechanics to deliver a solid jolt, but they don't put that extra oomph in an attempt to give their sparring partners a concussion.

Yeah. I must have been thinking about a situation that I thought must have been similar. I have random thoughts on most things. One of my thoughts was harking back to the day's, or to be precise - years, when a mate and myself would train together. He played Rugby at school and I had the boxing, so we would just have a bit of fun. We would not intentionally try to hurt each other, but we did not hold back. Mainly body shots, but we both hit the floor and thought nothing of it. It did have cross purpose for both us. Probably would be termed numbnuts behavior rather than full contact, but see you're point on that.

 

[ballen0351]

Sparring full-contact takes a lot more energy than light or no contact. It takes more energy to hit a solid object. It drains more energy when you get hit hard. It takes more energy when you clinch and/or push against an opponent. That's not even including the fatigue that comes from the stress of worrying about getting hit. Fighters who are accustomed to full-contact can get used to it and learn to relax, but it still burns more cardio than punching air.
.

While I won't deny having a good cardio is important none of what you describes even compares to a real life self defense. I stood still and shot someone one and ws breathing like I just sprinted a mile. Ive been in real fights that lasted 30 seconds and felt like I was fighting for an hour. So again you don't need to spar hard to build up this endurance because it doesn't really translate. It can be built in many traditional ways.

 

[drop bear]

And?

irrelevant

Why should he do it? I don't spar full contact I don't actually spar at all in the sense you claim. BUT Ive for darn sure used my skills in real life against real bad guys really trying to hurt me and I didn't have a ref, cut man, time limits, weight classes, predetermined time and place, time to stretch and train, doc check ups prior to and after, a nice fence to keep others from jumping in, ect ect ect and guess what Im still here. So again your point is irrelevent

Well if we wanted to throw irrelevant around your unproven personal anecdotes kind of fit as well.

But I am sure you are awesome.

 

[drop bear]

While I won't deny having a good cardio is important none of what you describes even compares to a real life self defense. I stood still and shot someone one and ws breathing like I just sprinted a mile. Ive been in real fights that lasted 30 seconds and felt like I was fighting for an hour. So again you don't need to spar hard to build up this endurance because it doesn't really translate. It can be built in many traditional ways.

It is something you can readily test. You can no contact spar and then full contact spar and see which one makes you more tired. Mma sparring by the way takes more cardio than striking.

Peoples opportunity to just go out and life and death someone is limited.

The added cardio is about the other guy pushing the pace. Say you did sprints which you could also do. At some point you could collapse and nobody is punching you in the face.

To train someone for a fight we would throw a fresh guy at the fighter each minute just to mimic the extra push needed to compete in front of people.

 

[drop bear]

This theory has passed many tests in the only arena that means a damn to us - real life attacks from people in the street wishing to do serious harm to our students and instructors, not in a safe controlled environment of a sporting competition. I did hear about one of our former black belts who went to a full contact school, did one back kick on a kicking shield, knocked the holder on his butt and was told not to come back because he was "too dangerous".



So you might drink pee if it becomes a trend? That says a lot.

The arena of stories.

 

[ballen0351]

It is something you can readily test. You can no contact spar and then full contact spar and see which one makes you more tired. Mma sparring by the way takes more cardio than striking.

Peoples opportunity to just go out and life and death someone is limited.

The added cardio is about the other guy pushing the pace. Say you did sprints which you could also do. At some point you could collapse and nobody is punching you in the face.

To train someone for a fight we would throw a fresh guy at the fighter each minute just to mimic the extra push needed to compete in front of people.

Except I don't train to fight in a ring. So repeated fighting of fresh guys means nothing to me. I have no desire to ever fight in a ring. I train to fight to save my life should the need arise. No amount of sparing will ever prepare you for the total adrenaline dump you get in a real live fight with a real live bad guy trying to kill you. So you want to train for sport fighting that way is probably very helpful. It just doesn't carry over to real life.

 

[ballen0351]

Well if we wanted to throw irrelevant around your unproven personal anecdotes kind of fit as well.

But I am sure you are awesome.

Your welcome to come read all the police reports anytime you want it's all public record.

 

[ballen0351]

Mma sparring by the way takes more cardio than striking.

By the way MMA sparing has strikes. Perhaps you mean BJJ which I agree is a hell of a workout