Misconceptions about non-contact sparring.

[ballen0351]

Not all implies that some does. Or said another way, "not all" is different from "none."

Mixed martial artists spar at all levels of contact from shadow boxing with air to full contact.

If I understand drop bear's point, I believe he's suggesting that some full contact sparring is preferable to no full contact sparring. If so, I agree.

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Nobody spars "full contact" full contact would lead to injuries or death. The only time anyone uses full contact is in a life or death fight

 

[jks9199]

Because then you would know if there was a difference or not. We can natter on all day but that is the deciding factor. Op,s post was saying no contact produces similar results. Fair enough. Go find out.

I could tell you the differences technically I tried, And people got sensitive.

Now when I say go out and test it you get sensitive.

Lucky I am not so sensitive. Or I would be offended by your insult posting.

Now go back and read the original post. Where it is a comparison on contact training and why there is really no difference.

I'm starting to wonder if there's not some sort of comprehension barrier. The whole point of the post was NON-CONTACT sparring, and it's benefits and role in training. Of course you can wade right through a barrage of non-contact shots... I bet you can walk through a paper wall on stage for a play, too, even if it's portraying a prison wall.

It's clear that you believe greatly in heavy contact sparring. That's great. It's definitely got a place in training, and I encourage people to do it some. But it's not the only or even the best form of training. There's no single best; there's only best for particular purposes. Non-contact sparring encourages participants to develop a certain skill set; a lot of that's covered in the first post. Sparring in general is great practice for dueling, and it's certainly fun. Slow exercises like Rory Miller's One-Step drill or half speed sparring allow you to develop other things, and has a place in training. But you're running a one-note line of "if it's not in the ring, if it's not full contact sparring, it's not real." It's like your trying to say that the only thing that really matters in heavy metal music is massive guitar solos. But, really, all the other parts -- bass, drums, keyboards, vocals, even stage performance -- are vital elements.

I don't know where the communication failure is happening -- and it can be from either side! -- but it sure seems to be happening.

Do you really suggest that a fighter going into a pro or even semi-pro fight is going full contact right up to fight day? I doubt it -- because the last thing any fighter I know at the pro or semi-pro levels wants is a rep for signing fights, then having to pull out from training injuries at the last minute. Most mix heavy sparring and lighter sparring through their ramp up to the fight, backing off the heavy stuff in the last few weeks before the fight.

But this is really starting to derail the topic -- just like talking about full contact in a non-contact setting is a derailleur.

 

[K-man]

This is very true about breathing and stress. I've seen very experienced black belts in other styles do this very thing when they step into the bjj gym. Another great endorsement for at least periodically sparring with greeter intensity and more contact.

The presumption I'm seeing here from some is that you train without contact, acknowledge the adverse effect that stress has on breathing and understand that in these situations that technique goes out the window. But then also seem to believe that you are immune to it. I don't get that, guys.

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The breathing is one thing I stress in training. So many guys actually hold their breath when they are concentrating on other things.

It is probably a topic in itself but to me 'sparring' is what people normally associate with sparring in TKD matches, Karate point kumite or the stand up part of MMA. That is, moving in and out of space, sometimes attacking, sometimes covering. It can range from pretty much full power with protective gear to total no touch like I experienced in a karate school that I won't name here. I don't do any of that in my karate. We do contact sparring in Krav so I'm not saying it doesn't have a place in MA training and for those thinking of participating in competition it is essential.

The point I want to make here is that we don't avoid heavy contact in our training. We just do it in a different way. In the same way that MMA includes grappling in 'sparring' we do train to engage and take down, but it is over in seconds, not a protracted 'give and take' situation. Some of it involves light striking, sometimes it is simulated striking depending on the target but it does start from a committed attack. What some aren't getting is that there are many different methods of training and hopefully, at the end of the day they all take us to roughly the same place.
:asian:

BTW, I love your WC quote. Very appropriate.

 

[drop bear]

I'm starting to wonder if there's not some sort of comprehension barrier. The whole point of the post was NON-CONTACT sparring, and it's benefits and role in training. Of course you can wade right through a barrage of non-contact shots... I bet you can walk through a paper wall on stage for a play, too, even if it's portraying a prison wall.

It's clear that you believe greatly in heavy contact sparring. That's great. It's definitely got a place in training, and I encourage people to do it some. But it's not the only or even the best form of training. There's no single best; there's only best for particular purposes. Non-contact sparring encourages participants to develop a certain skill set; a lot of that's covered in the first post. Sparring in general is great practice for dueling, and it's certainly fun. Slow exercises like Rory Miller's One-Step drill or half speed sparring allow you to develop other things, and has a place in training. But you're running a one-note line of "if it's not in the ring, if it's not full contact sparring, it's not real." It's like your trying to say that the only thing that really matters in heavy metal music is massive guitar solos. But, really, all the other parts -- bass, drums, keyboards, vocals, even stage performance -- are vital elements.

I don't know where the communication failure is happening -- and it can be from either side! -- but it sure seems to be happening.

Do you really suggest that a fighter going into a pro or even semi-pro fight is going full contact right up to fight day? I doubt it -- because the last thing any fighter I know at the pro or semi-pro levels wants is a rep for signing fights, then having to pull out from training injuries at the last minute. Most mix heavy sparring and lighter sparring through their ramp up to the fight, backing off the heavy stuff in the last few weeks before the fight.

But this is really starting to derail the topic -- just like talking about full contact in a non-contact setting is a derailleur.

OP is making the comparison. So am I.

If this was a thread on tactics for non contact and I started saying full contact.

That would be the derail.

And you taper up to full contact to about a week or so and then stop sparring all together. I don't think you could easily go back to semi or no contact at that point as the fighter is a bit intense at that stage.

 

[drop bear]

Right now I get what you mean. You missed out "full" (I presume) and that threw me a lil bit. From what I have seen of MMA, I can't help but feel that a certain amount of recklessness is there. Okay there are some greats, but that would apply across a lot of disciplines. I really do see you're point about cardio, but why throw a kick that is going to miss. That just implies that the kick is a guess move of sorts, and that would be reckless. The one thing I would cite as a disagreement, is the stress element. One you get stressed, you do not breath. Thus you are relying on brute strength and raw power. Hence the energy drain. Economy of movement also applies to economy of the mind. Once you have to start thinking, you are not reacting. Just my own opinion.

The miss kick is the Thai style kick that if it misses you have to spin out from.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8G4gsTD1hfk

OP I believe is comparing it to the sort of kick that you re chamber. Which you would have to throw in non contact.



Throwing hard bombs is exhausting.

You can limit stress. But it is very hard to remove completely. And is also exhausting. This is a cornermans first job is to get the fighter breathing again.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not all implies that some does. Or said another way, "not all" is different from "none."

Mixed martial artists spar at all levels of contact from shadow boxing with air to full contact.

If I understand drop bear's point, I believe he's suggesting that some full contact sparring is preferable to no full contact sparring. If so, I agree.

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If that's his point, I'd agree. But what he posts suggests that he feels all sparring needs to be full contact. And if that we're his point, all he needed to do was agree with the statement I made: not all training needs to be full contact.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[drop bear]

If that's his point, I'd agree. But what he posts suggests that he feels all sparring needs to be full contact. And if that we're his point, all he needed to do was agree with the statement I made: not all training needs to be full contact.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

You are correct not all training needs to be full contact.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You are correct not all training needs to be full contact.

Ahh, Progress.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Getting hit changes the tactics.

Yes, it means that your tactic was not working as well as it should and you need to defend better.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The miss kick is the Thai style kick that if it misses you have to spin out from.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8G4gsTD1hfk

From the comment you made about the kick that misses I thought you were referring to a kick that was aimed at a target and suddenly the target was not there and the kicker overbalanced and fell over. The kick in the above video is another story. I personally would not like to use such a kick. There is a saying that "you should never turn your back on an opponent", which is gennerally good advice. However if you must do a spinning movement (back fist, back kick etc) then you have to turn your back and you should minimize the time you are facing away from your opponent. Now you might do a spinning technique if your opponent moves to the side at your back, blocks your kick in such a way that makes you turn or to produce more power (a back kick is much more powerful than a side kick for example) and there are always risks associated with spinning. I would not use that kick in self defence or sparring because because I would have my back to my opponent needlessly, I would not be turning my back for any of the reasons I just mentioned, there is not much point to spinning after my kick is completed. If someone threw a kick like that then they would be vulnerable to a direct kick to the groin when their back is turned.

OP I believe is comparing it to the sort of kick that you re chamber. Which you would have to throw in non contact.

There are many reasons for re-chambering the kick and none of those I can think of has anything to do with the level of contact. You re-chamber so you can kick again without putting your foot down, so your opponent can not grab your leg, to step backwards more easily, so you can follow up with hand techniques etc.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You really need that chin of iron to stand and trade which is why most fighters don't.

I have seen fighters in full contact matches stand and trade all the time. Just because you are sparring non-contact does not mean you can stand and trade. We sometimes use a drill called toe to toe hand sparring where both training partners are standing with their front foot close to each other and are not allowed to move the front foot and even that is not about trading. You try to get your strikes though your partners defenses and block theirs from getting through. The Don Frye video has a lot of trading.

Found it.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dapfW9AkfsQ

This is a really hard way to win a fight.

The only thing that is missing are the ice skates.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well if I throw non contact hits we could both stand there like rockem sockem robots.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jgpsR579Zy4

If you thought that was bad you should see them performing their patterns, devoid of any power.

 

[drop bear]

I have seen fighters in full contact matches stand and trade all the time. Just because you are sparring non-contact does not mean you can stand and trade. We sometimes use a drill called toe to toe hand sparring where both training partners are standing with their front foot close to each other and are not allowed to move the front foot and even that is not about trading. You try to get your strikes though your partners defenses and block theirs from getting through. The Don Frye video has a lot of trading.




The only thing that is missing are the ice skates.

You have to be a certain kind of fighter to stand and trade. Some can some can't. You can't really teach it.

The only way to realise that is to get hit.

 

[drop bear]

If you thought that was bad you should see them performing their patterns, devoid of any power.

First one I could find. The point is they eat shot after shot completely unaffected. While they get on with the business of working out their next attract.

You can't actually do that unless you have a head like a brick.

They are both fighting like they have iron chins. Which is a really good way to risk getting knocked out.

 

[wingchun100]

It's cool to read an article like this from someone who favors non-contact, or can at least see the benefit of it. In my wing chun school we don't spar (there are too many new students who don't even have the hang of chi sao yet), but every now and then we will run through self-defense scenarios where we stop short of going full-contact. I've had other people insult me for practicing that way...not just the non-contact part of course, but also using the "you never know what will happen on the street" argument. A well thought out post like this presents a great argument for why we shouldn't knock our classmates' teeth out every night.

 

[Buka]

A great OP. Great comments, too.





It's all good, really, at least to me. I think once someone has a few years under their belt they'll have a better understanding of what each might be able to do for their training. I don't really see a down side - other than specifics which are obvious - it probably wouldn't be prudent to train non contact to prepare for a boxing match. But, then, it probably wouldn't be prudent to train in boxing for a sport Karate competition.






I trained exclusively non contact from 1970 to 1975. When we made contact to the face, the match was stopped and you had to do a set of pushups as punishment. In 1975, a group of us had been promoted to black belt a few months earlier and started competing in that division. Contact was allowed to the face so we started training that way. Been that way ever since. I competed for several decades. Fought in hundreds of tournaments around the country and some overseas. Had a lot of success, won a lot, lost a lot, won a dozen grand championships or so. I fought guys who trained specifically in non contact, I've fought guys who train contact. I have been injured, hurt and absolutely smoked by both on an equal basis. I'd like to be able to say otherwise, but I can't.

Am I a better fighter because I trained with contact? I honestly don't know, but I don't think so. I think I'd be the same fighter either way. But there's no way to tell.


Random thoughts -




If a guy is sparring and throwing everything really, really hard - he's going to gas out in 90 seconds. We'll be waiting. Smiling. That's called fun in the Dojo.


Getting punched in the face sucks, always has always will, but it happens in Martial Arts. "Getting used to it" might be a common rally cry for the young fight crowd, but they don't know ***** from tuna fish. (and yes, we old guys were the same way when we were young) You deal with it, you don't want to get used to it. If you do get used to it, you might want to reconsider your choice of sport. (seriously)

For me....I still train contact. With beginners I use kid gloves, with intermediate students I'm careful - not of them, but of me getting hurt. Sometimes they're worse than white belts. With black belts and other old dogs, we just train and have fun. How much or how hard we hit each other varies with the players and the particular mood we're all in that day.


I'll tell you one thing I've noticed between the "non contact" guys and the "contact" guys. The non contact guys tend to have a better reverse punch. I'm not sure why. I hate getting hit with a reverse punch. Them suckers hurt.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Easy to test as well. Do a full contact fight and see how you go.

How bout this? Both fighters don't spar full contact, one doesn't even spar. Oddly enough, looks like they didn't have any cardio or conditioning issues.
Johny Hendricks vs. Robbie Lawler: How Safe Sparring May Change Contact Sports | Bleacher Report

 

[drop bear]

How bout this? Both fighters don't spar full contact, one doesn't even spar. Oddly enough, looks like they didn't have any cardio or conditioning issues.
Johny Hendricks vs. Robbie Lawler: How Safe Sparring May Change Contact Sports | Bleacher Report

Look if that was a trend and not the exception.

Machida drinks his own pee.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Look if that was a trend and not the exception.

I didn't say it was a trend, all I did was show you two top class fighters who don't practice "full-contact" sparring, and my personal knowledge of kickboxers who are relatively successful and train the same way, but whether or not its a trend i've no idea. I'm assuming you have information to support the idea that it's just an exception?

Machida drinks his own pee.

And that is related to his fighting ability how? That might be an apt comparison if I was making an argument about hair color or something that clearly isn't related, but how one practices is much more related to their fighting ability then what they do with their piss.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Many people look at karate punches as being like the ones in this video ...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R1PZbInSsyc

Unfortunately you also see advanced karate people doing the same thing and you see it in non-contact sparring. My 'smell test' is this. Would you punch like this in a pub brawl? If your answer is yes then I can't help you. If the answer is no, then I would ask why are you still training that way?

You see advanced karate people doing punching like that video shows during sparring? I've never seen that and I've been in Taekwon-Do for 28 years. Have you seen it at tournaments? In class sparring? I haven't seen it in either of those settings. Our sparring tends to be non-contact at white belt level and then progresses to semi-contact around 8th gup. I have never even seen 10 gups punch like that in sparring.

The punching that was shown in the video seems to be simply to demonstrate the proper body mechanics for a punch under ideal conditions (which sparring would certainly not qualify as). It's certainly not meant to be used as an example of how to punch during a sparring match.

Pax,

Chris