Michael Jai White - non telegraphic movement

[TMA17]

 

[drop bear]

There is a neat little sword fighting strike where it is hand first then foot.

Works on the same sort of idea.


The concept of this straight towards movement vs sideways movement is very important.

 

[Danny T]

Hand before body.

 

[Anarax]

We do the same drill in Kali with pads. Having to unlearn telegraphing is difficult, but it's a major advantage in sparring/fighting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Bad news. There is always a telegraph. The key is learning how to use the correct part of the eye to see it (cones vs rods). Our eyes have a remarkable ability to detect motion as slight as body shift and weight redistribution. How good is it? If you get it right you can see a strike before your opponent decides to use it. The difficulty that we have is that our eyes like to focus on things and that interrupts our ability to see things. We often experience this heighten ability to detect motion when we say things like "saw it from the corner of my eye." The most common example I can think of is when a ball or object is thrown and a person sees it just in time to duck or avoid it without thinking.
Here's an example of that ability to track motion

I forgot the name of the Japanese Swordman who stated "focus by not focusing" or something like that. When you are able to do this at will, then it will be like everything is slowing down and moving in slow motion. You see the motion that comes before the motion. I've only been able to do this once during sparring.

I used to train this ability by not looking directly at my opponent. I look either to the right or left on my opponent far enough to where I can no longer see detail in my opponent. Your opponent should be like a blur. Keep doing this until it becomes easy to see the movement. Once you "master" this then move your gaze a little closer to your opponent. Eventually you'll get to point where you almost look directly at your opponent without focusing in on your opponent.

Give it a try and you'll be able to even detect motion that was described in the OP's video. Have fun with it and be patient. Focusing by not focusing is difficult to do, but when you get it, you'll be amazed.

 

[Anarax]

Bad news. There is always a telegraph

Telegraph is a tell before you start executing the technique, taking out wasted motion or any physiological sign until you start the technique is how you train to not telegraph. Throwing the punch isn't the telegraph, raising your elbow, tensing up, sinking your weight, etc are the telegraphs.

If you get it right you can see a strike before your opponent decides to use it

With all due respect that's not true. Regardless of how great of a martial artist you are you can't predict the future.

Here's an example of that ability to track motion

This video is fake and has been altered to look real. Even if it was real, which it isn't, I'm sure the loud crack of the bat hitting the ball was the tell.

I used to train this ability by not looking directly at my opponent. I look either to the right or left on my opponent far enough to where I can no longer see detail in my opponent.

That's sounds like a very dangerous thing to do. If you're able to get away with that in sparring, maybe you need more challenging sparring partners. If you're sparring/fighting more than one person, then yes you should avoid focusing too much on one opponent. But that's not what you're referring to.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Telegraph is a tell before you start executing the technique, taking out wasted motion or any physiological sign until you start the technique is how you train to not telegraph. Throwing the punch isn't the telegraph, raising your elbow, tensing up, sinking your weight, etc are the telegraphs.

There is always a telegraph. Training not to telegraph is more accurately described as training to reduce so that your opponent is less aware of it.

You have to keep in mind that a "Telegraphed motion" is based on 2 things. Your ability to move and my ability to detect your motion. The better you are at hiding your motion the better I need to be in detecting it. If I suck at detecting motion then it doesn't take much for the person to "not telegraph." Just because I can't read your attacks or motion doesn't automatically mean that you are "not telegraphing." It could just mean that I suck at reading motion.

I think most martial art systems understand this reality of "not telegraphing" and learned to hide motion within motion, which is very common in martial arts. In the video, Kimbo slice held his hand within a good striking range. Had he held his hand back just far enough Michael Jai White to adjust, then Michael Jai White would have moved more to reach the target.

With all due respect that's not true. Regardless of how great of a martial artist you are you can't predict the future.

You aren't reading what I've been saying. You aren't predicting anything. You are seeing the movement. Every punch and every kick has a balance shift. The body will naturally shift weight as the body tries to maintain balance while doing the action. The balance shift for a punch is different from the balance shift for a kick. Everything I've said has been about seeing motion and not predicting the future.

This video is fake and has been altered to look real. Even if it was real, which it isn't, I'm sure the loud crack of the bat hitting the ball was the tell.

I looked it up and the resource that I found stated that it was actually real. So lets say that it is fake. Have you caught a falling glass when you weren't looking directly at it? If not then you can see it at work again here.

Like I said before. Many of us have done this before in our lives, but it wasn't done at will and it happened when we weren't trying to be quick or trying to see motion.
Here's another example: Notice the angle of the pitchers' head as they catch the ball. If you turn head and try to look forward like they are doing you will notice that you lose detail. As a matter of fact you will lose so much detail that won't be able read the name on a water bottle no matter how much you try to focus. The reason is because you are using a different part of your eye to see. The part that you are using is extremely good at detecting motion.

That's sounds like a very dangerous thing to do. If you're able to get away with that in sparring, maybe you need more challenging sparring partners. If you're sparring/fighting more than one person, then yes you should avoid focusing too much on one opponent. But that's not what you're referring to.

It's not as dangerous as you think. Start off with light sparring because you have to train to look though a different part of your eye. When you first start you will constantly keep trying to focus. Focusing creates tunnel vision and causes you to miss very subtle movements. The more you get comfortable with seeing things without detail the better you'll get at it. The ultimate goal is to look towards your opponent without focusing on him.

The natural human body behavior is to First: detect motion and Second: focus on the motion. The training removes the second part until you see motion, but not focus on it. I trained the other instructor at my school with this technique and he was able to learn it. I hated that I trained him, because it became more difficult to hit him when he is able to switch his vision. When this happens I had to learn how to hide motion within motion.

 

[Anarax]

If you get it right you can see a strike before your opponent decides to use it

My opponent hasn't decided to use the technique, so it hasn't happened yet. I can see the strike before the very thought of it is formed, thus I can see the future.

You aren't reading what I've been saying.

Yes I am, but I can only read the words that you type, thus if you meant something other than what you typed I couldn't know that.

If not then you can see it at work again here.

Parents seeing in their field of vision and catching their kids falling doesn't prove the concept you speak of. Catching falling children isn't the same as reacting to a trained martial artists trying to hit you. Same thing goes for ball players who are entirely focused on what they're doing and having fast reflexes, but they are entirely focused on what they are doing.

Notice the angle of the pitchers' head as they catch the ball. If you turn head and try to look forward like they are doing you will notice that you lose detail

No, that just means that one player had faster reflexes than the other, it has nothing to do with looking away gives you a better response time.

Focusing creates tunnel vision and causes you to miss very subtle movements

Only focusing on my opponents fist or foot is foolish, but not focusing entirely on them as the threat isn't going to give me any advantage in responding to attacks.

Have you caught a falling glass when you weren't looking directly at it?

I have heard a glass starting to fall and because of my memory I know where it is on the table and gravity can only pull it in one direction, then yes I have caught a glass before. Sparring and fighting aren't that simple though. There are too many angles, ranges and factors that must be contentiously assessed to be able to respond to attacks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What we refer to as "telegraphing" is actually two pieces (JGW is right in this area): how much motion you give before or at the very beginning of the strike, and how good your opponent/partner is at recognizing that specific pattern of movement. If they start moving the shoulder in preparation of the attack, I have a better chance of reading that movement than an untrained student..........if it's a movement I'm used to seeing (this is one of the advantages of sparring/training with other styles). If it's something I'm not used to seeing, and doesn't match any of the patterns I (subconsciously) know, then I'm maybe no better at reading it than an untrained person.

I don't think it's entirely possible to remove the tells in the early part of a strike, but it is possible to get them to a point where most people (even most well-trained people) will not see them. I'm probably not that person, and probably not the best at reading them (I'd guess Drop Bear, having been at the target end of more punches from untrained people, is much better at this than me).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I will also add that the reflex bits (catching kids, balls, glasses) isn't a good analogy, IMO, for reading a punch. All those things are mostly recognizing motion and picking a target. Recognizing a punch requires more differentiation (knowing they aren't just stepping forward, that they aren't gathering for a kick, getting which arm it is, seeing that it's either straight or curved, etc.). It's actually more akin to reading a pitch from the batter's box. The approach we use is a wide-focus (kind of like JGW is talking about), with the center at the top of the chest (from there I can usually see shoulders, knees, and hands - unless the hands are attached to me, then I know where they are).

 

[wckf92]

Bad news. There is always a telegraph. The key is learning how to use the correct part of the eye to see it (cones vs rods). Our eyes have a remarkable ability to detect motion as slight as body shift and weight redistribution. How good is it? If you get it right you can see a strike before your opponent decides to use it. The difficulty that we have is that our eyes like to focus on things and that interrupts our ability to see things. We often experience this heighten ability to detect motion when we say things like "saw it from the corner of my eye." The most common example I can think of is when a ball or object is thrown and a person sees it just in time to duck or avoid it without thinking.
Here's an example of that ability to track motion

I forgot the name of the Japanese Swordman who stated "focus by not focusing" or something like that. When you are able to do this at will, then it will be like everything is slowing down and moving in slow motion. You see the motion that comes before the motion. I've only been able to do this once during sparring.

I used to train this ability by not looking directly at my opponent. I look either to the right or left on my opponent far enough to where I can no longer see detail in my opponent. Your opponent should be like a blur. Keep doing this until it becomes easy to see the movement. Once you "master" this then move your gaze a little closer to your opponent. Eventually you'll get to point where you almost look directly at your opponent without focusing in on your opponent.

Give it a try and you'll be able to even detect motion that was described in the OP's video. Have fun with it and be patient. Focusing by not focusing is difficult to do, but when you get it, you'll be amazed.

Cones vs rods...very true. And a good observation by jgw.
I first learned it outside of martial arts but it is and can be applied in a lot of daily life aspects.

 

[Danny T]

The video with Evan Longoria is a fake. Was set up from a Gillette Razor Company commercial.

Gillette spokesman Michael Norton "The video was filmed while on location for a Gillette Fusion ProGlide commercial, the catch is real, we flipped him the ball. The rest of video, (chuckling) we’ll leave that up to the viewers.”

I agree with being able to read body movement.
Cones and rods viewing is correct. Peripheral vision will pick up movement quicker than foveal vision. However, be aware that in a high stress situation such as in a self defense situation adrenaline produced by the body reduces peripheral vision and the ability to see much beyond foveal vision.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Michael Jai White

He is an accomplished martial artist, holding black belts in seven different styles: Shotokan, Taekwondo, Kobudo, Goju Ryu (for which he studied under Master Eddie Morales where he learned to sharpen his Goju karate technique), Tang Soo Do, Wushu and Kyokushin, with a specific focus in Kyokushin (although his style incorporates aspects of many different martial arts forms). White started training in the martial arts at the age of seven in Jujutsu and then Shotokan moving to other styles later.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The video with Evan Longoria is a fake. Was set up from a Gillette Razor Company commercial.

Gillette spokesman Michael Norton "The video was filmed while on location for a Gillette Fusion ProGlide commercial, the catch is real, we flipped him the ball. The rest of video, (chuckling) we’ll leave that up to the viewers.”

I agree with being able to read body movement.
Cones and rods viewing is correct. Peripheral vision will pick up movement quicker than foveal vision. However, be aware that in a high stress situation such as in a self defense situation adrenaline produced by the body reduces peripheral vision and the ability to see much beyond foveal vision.

Thanks for verifying that the video is fake.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My opponent hasn't decided to use the technique, so it hasn't happened yet. I can see the strike before the very thought of it is formed, thus I can see the future.

Think of it like this. Can you look at a beginner student and tell that they are trying to punch before they even decide to punch? It's like that. It's just easier to see it in a beginner student because they have tell-tale signs all over the place. The only difference between an advanced student and a beginner student, is that the advanced student doesn't have tell-tales that are easy to see.

Parents seeing in their field of vision and catching their kids falling doesn't prove the concept you speak of. Catching falling children isn't the same as reacting to a trained martial artists trying to hit you. Same thing goes for ball players who are entirely focused on what they're doing and having fast reflexes, but they are entirely focused on what they are doing.

It's actually a good analogy if you understand how the cones and rods of the eye work. It's not about seeing a punch, it's about seeing movement, so the punch becomes irrelevant. I often say that the more I learn about fighting the less it becomes about fighting. This is one of those subjects that fits into that saying. What I'm talking about is letting the body naturally recognize movement and letting the trained technique be the reaction. If you train a technique over and over it becomes a natural habit. It's something that will happen even if you aren't thinking about it happening. Martial artist practice a technique over and over until they that technique becomes a reactive motion (a motion that will happen without thought).

Our eyes and brain are amazing and they would be even better if we would get out of our own way and let the brain process information naturally without trying to manually process information. This is why you will always hear martial art instructors tell students not to think when they do forms, and not to over think when sparring. Our manual thinking slows us down.

There are too many angles, ranges and factors that must be contentiously assessed to be able to respond to attacks.

There used to be a time were I would make a video to show this. Same concept of vision and recognizing motion and using Peripheral Vision.

 

[Anarax]

Can you look at a beginner student and tell that they are trying to punch before they even decide to punch?

No, I would have to be psychic to see something coming before it's very existence is thought of.

It's not about seeing a punch, it's about seeing movement, so the punch becomes irrelevant.

No, it's not irrelevant, seeing movement isn't enough, our brain must know what technique is coming so we respond appropriately. I'm not going to block a kick with the same technique I block a punch with. Thus what is being thrown at me is very relevant.

Our manual thinking slows us down.

I agree, but that's were muscle memory comes into play. It's not training natural reactions alone, we must recognize the criteria for the appropriate technique then we nsturally execute the technique. If I vigorously train my muscle memory to block punches, that won't give me the ability to sense a punch coming from every direction at all times. I must either see the punch coming or a physical tell it's about to be thrown to respond.

 

[drop bear]

A lot of this has to do with where you stand. If the shot has a direct line. You probably won't see it. So avoid standing there.

There is more to it than just not cocking your arm back in a punch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No, I would have to be psychic to see something coming before it's very existence is thought of.

You still aren't understanding what I'm saying. There is movement before you actually do an action. Very simple. If you can't understand this example, then I can't make it any clearer. When a person throws a ball, they make movement before they actually throw a ball. Punching and kicking is the same way. There is movement that happens before the actual punch or before the actual kick. The movement that happens before a punch looks different than the movement that happens before a kick.

This is the concept: There is movement before movement.
This is the proof: In the video that was posted of Michale Jai White, Go to the 1:30 mark and start playing it in slow motion around one 1:33 you will see him make the preparation movement which is to move the right leg forward slightly. This first movement sets up the balance that he needs to throw the punch. This is probably a tell-tale for him because he did it with every punch. It's like a "sneak step" to close the distance without your opponent knowing and it preps the stance that he'll need to execute the punch. One the first punch his chest actually flexes before the punch is thrown. Some people hold their breath or tense up when they throw a punch which means that the initial movement isn't in their arms but in their chest. The movement that one will see is a change in breathing.

Now for the second punch. Same thing. He has movement in his right leg. Instead of stepping he sinks. This is him preparing. This time the movement for the punch was more in his shoulder. Right before the punch you can see his shoulder muscles flex.

Now for the third punch. This time the movement is right leg is even less because he's already at his efficient distance. Again. His shoulder tenses up before the punch is actually thrown.

Each punch was the same thing. Movement was around the shoulder area in the form of the shoulder muscles flexing.

I can't be sure but when he throws the punch with his rear hand, it appears that his chest tenses up before the throw. Michael Jai White is not saying anything wrong, he's just leaving a lot of things out. But towards the end he talks about how the eye works and that's what you have to understand first. Once you understand how the eye works then you can exploit the human tendency or the natural human reaction of the eye.

Kimbo slice was a street fighter, so what Michael Jai White was able to do in the demo with Kimbo was done to a person who didn't understand how his own eyes function in the context of seeing motion. Kimbo slice was looking for the punch vs looking for the motion before the punch.

our brain must know what technique is coming so we respond appropriately.

That why there is so much repetition in martial arts so that techniques happen as a reflex with little involvement of manually trying to decide which technique is going to come out. The repetition programs the brain so that things happen without trying to "know what technique is coming and what technique we should use in response." That's just way too much thinking and it won't help in learning how to apply the techniques and when.

From what you are explaining, you are making the process of the "How too" way to complicated. It's simple
Train repetition
Train the eye that recognizes movement
Fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You still aren't understanding what I'm saying. There is movement before you actually do an action. Very simple. If you can't understand this example, then I can't make it any clearer. When a person throws a ball, they make movement before they actually throw a ball. Punching and kicking is the same way. There is movement that happens before the actual punch or before the actual kick. The movement that happens before a punch looks different than the movement that happens before a kick.

This is the concept: There is movement before movement.
This is the proof: In the video that was posted of Michale Jai White, Go to the 1:30 mark and start playing it in slow motion around one 1:33 you will see him make the preparation movement which is to move the right leg forward slightly. This first movement sets up the balance that he needs to throw the punch. This is probably a tell-tale for him because he did it with every punch. It's like a "sneak step" to close the distance without your opponent knowing and it preps the stance that he'll need to execute the punch. One the first punch his chest actually flexes before the punch is thrown. Some people hold their breath or tense up when they throw a punch which means that the initial movement isn't in their arms but in their chest. The movement that one will see is a change in breathing.

Now for the second punch. Same thing. He has movement in his right leg. Instead of stepping he sinks. This is him preparing. This time the movement for the punch was more in his shoulder. Right before the punch you can see his shoulder muscles flex.

Now for the third punch. This time the movement is right leg is even less because he's already at his efficient distance. Again. His shoulder tenses up before the punch is actually thrown.

Each punch was the same thing. Movement was around the shoulder area in the form of the shoulder muscles flexing.

I can't be sure but when he throws the punch with his rear hand, it appears that his chest tenses up before the throw. Michael Jai White is not saying anything wrong, he's just leaving a lot of things out. But towards the end he talks about how the eye works and that's what you have to understand first. Once you understand how the eye works then you can exploit the human tendency or the natural human reaction of the eye.

Kimbo slice was a street fighter, so what Michael Jai White was able to do in the demo with Kimbo was done to a person who didn't understand how his own eyes function in the context of seeing motion. Kimbo slice was looking for the punch vs looking for the motion before the punch.

That why there is so much repetition in martial arts so that techniques happen as a reflex with little involvement of manually trying to decide which technique is going to come out. The repetition programs the brain so that things happen without trying to "know what technique is coming and what technique we should use in response." That's just way too much thinking and it won't help in learning how to apply the techniques and when.

From what you are explaining, you are making the process of the "How too" way to complicated. It's simple
Train repetition
Train the eye that recognizes movement
Fight.

I think the issue is that you've twice said "before they decide to punch". To me (and apparently to Anarax) that sounds like you're saying you'll know they are going to punch before they do. I assume that's not what you mean.

 

[drop bear]

You still aren't understanding what I'm saying. There is movement before you actually do an action. Very simple. If you can't understand this example, then I can't make it any clearer. When a person throws a ball, they make movement before they actually throw a ball. Punching and kicking is the same way. There is movement that happens before the actual punch or before the actual kick. The movement that happens before a punch looks different than the movement that happens before a kick.

A lot of the video deals with sideways vs direct movement though. It takes a step past basic telegraphing.

And how you would apply this would be if say for example you punch with a flaired elbow. That elbow coming across the body becomes a visual clue that you are punching. Rather than seeing the fist moving directly forwards which is hard.

So if visually you can put the line of your elbow behind your fist you reduce your tell.

This is also one very basic reason you move to the blind side. Because then a right cross has to move sideways where you can see it rather than straight on where you can't.