Mechanics of the "Oblique kick" explained

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by JowGaWolf, Oct 20, 2019.

  1. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    If you plan on attending the webinar that I'm scheduling or if you would like to attend then please watch this video first as it will help with the discussion.

    So without going into a lot of details, I made a video that covers some of the simple mechanics involved with doing an "oblique kick" "shadowless kick". "no-shadow kick".

    In the video I show 2 types of stomps, there is actually a third one but I didn't want to get into too much detail since I'm only showing the mechanics of this kick and not how to actually do the kick.

    Here's what's covered.
    1. Two types of stomps

    2. The difference between whipping and stomping

    3. Slow movement of the kick. Ideally I would just do the kick normal speed and then slow down the footage, but since I don't have my high speed camera yet, I did my best to move slowly.

    4.. I touched a little on some fighting concepts and fighting movement of using this kick.

    There a bonus clip at the end. I welcome anyone to try and do what my son and I could not do. If you are able to do it then show a video of you doing it..

    Enjoy the video

     
  2. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    i'm not sure what the controversy and multiple threads are about ?

    that an extremely effective kick, really the only front kick you need, which is fortunate as its the only one i can do that has venom in it, i've planted that in peoples chests with quite devastating results
     
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  3. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    The multiple post are due to a miscommunication of where someone posted a video on how to defend against this kick. I stated that the defenses shown wouldn't work because that's now how the kick is actually used.

    Some took offense to that and defended Shane (the person I was highlighting about the defense). Then it got sided tracked from defense to how the kick is different than what I was showing in my video.

    Soooo. Long story short I made a video and will do an online we binary to discuss the technique, the video, and why I made the statements about the video. I care more about sharing my knowledge about this technique than I do about who is right and who is wrong. I rather keep it practical to what works and what doesn't and why.
     
  4. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    il have to go and find the vid, but your but your correct, there is no defence against that other than being q1uick enough to get out of the way,, if someone gets their arm in the way, then the arm gets stomped, same end result,

    the technique is exactly the same as kicking{ smashing the lock} a door open, using some of the biggest muscles in the body, the force on the receiving end of that is considerable
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
  5. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Now this bit - this is what I was getting at before.

    It's not how the kick is actually used by you / in your opinion.

    How you decide is the only way you want to use the kick isn't the only valid way of using it.

    In your video above, there are (in my system) at least 3 different kicks - if not more, I'd have to go through it again to count properly - but each of those has different possible applications (offensive and defensive) and hence possible defences/counters.

    Now, I'm more than happy to carry on discussing it with this in mind, but it's going to be utterly unproductive if you are only willing to accept that there's only one kick there (yours) and that one kick only has one possible application (yours).
     
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  6. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    You still don't understand what I'm saying. Even after I made the video about trying to do the kick when your face is within punching range. Even after I discussed cat stance and why it would be impossible to lift the leg. Even after I showed how I did the same kick at different levels and different stance heights. Even after I'm specifically creating an online webinar to cover the analysis of how the kick is portrayed in the video I commented about.

    I don't know what else to do than to kick you. With this kick and let you see first hand that those defenses won't work against this type of kick.
     
  7. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Let's try this. Why would you do an oblique kick against your opponent when he is close enough to punch you in the face?
     
  8. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    As I've said, I don't actually know which defences you're saying won't work because I haven't watched Shane's video. He might be saying to lift the leg, he might be saying to turn and moon you, I really don't have a clue.

    I have no interest in trying to prove him right or wrong, it makes no odds to me.

    Maybe his defences won't work against how you do your version of one of the kicks in your video.
     
  9. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Firstly, it's usually my aim to not let my opponent get in that close.

    Secondly, as I've said, the variations you've shown for "oblique kick" cover at least 3+ differently named and purposed kicks in ITF TKD. We don't have (to my knowledge) anything named "oblique kick".


    If they did get into punching range, then I certainly wouldn't use my back leg to kick forwards, because it's too close to effectively extend the leg. Of course there's the option of an upward kick from the rear leg, but that's completely different anyway.

    I may however choose to use my front leg for a pressing kick (outward or inward), or a twisting kick, or a snap kick, etc...

    Now most of those kicks use superficially the same mechanics as you've shown when performed from the rear leg, but are slightly altered when using the front leg.
     
  10. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Then you have to watch the his video first. My comments are out of context without that video. Without that video it will seem like I'm "painting everyone with the same brush"
     
  11. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Right, so I've watched his video too (tbh I thought it was going to be way longer, which is the main reason I didn't bother).

    A clarification first - are you saying that the only correct way to throw this kick is against a fully weighted front leg with a rooted stance?
     
  12. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    This kick won't work against empty stance with 0% weight on leading leg. You can bend your knee effortless from this stance.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
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  13. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    yes. If you don't want your opponent to be able to counter or escape your kick then you need to do this kick when that leg is weighted. To try and kick that leg when it's not weighted will invite danger. The thing to remember is that the leg doesn't have to be fully weight. If one leg has 49% of the body's weight on it and the other leg has 51% of the body's weight then you want to kick the leg that has 51% weight on the leg. It's the leg that is most rooted by the weight.

    In reality 51% is good enough. Practically it doesn't take a long time to shift 1% weight so you can move, So you want to make sure that there is more weight than that. Basically the more weight that is on a leg the more time it takes to shift that weight and redistribute it and the more likely your kick will land unchallenged.. There's is more to it than just that, but it's a good general rule to follow.
     
  14. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

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    "Actually used" is the root of the disagreement. It seems you see any variation of that particular kick as incorrect.

    I don't think anyone was particularly offended. However, other members clearly explained why the kick/defense Shane showed is effective and your way isn't the only way to throw it. Did you post it to get others interested in the seminar?
     
  15. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Yeah I wouldn't eve try that kick on a stance like that. The success rate greatly drops greatly so there's no good reason to even try. How ever if I saw someone positioning into a cat stance I would target the rear leg. In the image that you posted, that's not an option. But in this image the lead leg and rear leg are next door neighbors. This is where the lower kick comes into to play . It has a longer reach and at this distance it should be able to hit that rear leg. Especially if my legs are longer than my opponents legs.
    upload_2019-10-21_20-20-44.png
     
  16. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    So what are the variations that you speak of. If I'm incorrect about what I'm saying then give me an example of this kick working differently.
     
  17. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    No one has explained why those defenses worked. If so point me to it. Point me to where they state. "This defense works because of A, B, C, D. ".

    People who know me also know that I'm more than willing to share my knowledge and my understanding of Martial arts, mainly Jow Ga kung fu unless the technique is similar or the same across systems. They also know that when I say I look forward to talk to them, that I'm honest about that.

    I've been chatting with some of these guys for more than 4 years. So yeah. it would nice to talk to people vs typing stuff all the time.. Not sure why that seems like some kind of promotional thing for a webinar.
     
  18. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Notice how the check is turned outward? That protects the rear leg as well.
     
  19. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Not really. It depends on the angle I'm at. That's why I made the video showing how easy it is for me to change the angle of the kick by moving my feet. Basically pointing my toes in a different direction. I'll use the picture below to explain

    If you are leg checking me for the purpose of protecting that leg from being kicked in the thigh, then you aren't thinking about your other leg. Remember the whole purpose of doing a leg check against my oblique kick is to prevent me from kicking your thigh with my oblique kick..

    1. If I see that you are in a stance where the weight isn't on that front leg that you want to lift then there's a 90% chance I won't do the kick.
    2. If I see that you are trying to knee check me then I may change angles and send my kick past the one you are trying to protect so using the picture below. I would normally be kicking that lead leg, but because I see that you want to lift it, I would change my feet slightly and send the kick past your leg check or lower than your leg check so I can kick you on your standing leg. The reason I would do this is because I know you can't side step or move out of the way while you are standing on that leg. Below you can see how the kick gets past the leg check..


    upload_2019-10-22_0-16-2.png


    Looking at the image below, shows the position that I would need to be in to make this happen. If he's in a cat stance waiting to leg check my oblique kick. the I would stop outside to my left a little at an angle. I would do this to close the gap to make sure I get that back leg, to create space for my leg to pass the leg check, and to create the appearance that I'm about to kick. This would then cause him to shift weight to the back legs which is the one I want to target because it's the one that's weighted. I would then shoot my kick pays the leg check to hit his back leg. Keep in mind the only reason he's doing a leg check is to protect that leg and not the one he's standing on.

    In a fighting situation, I would probably throw some punches and some low roundhouse kicks so he'll use the leg check when he sees my leg moving. Then when I think it's a good time I would make the same leg movements but instead of turning into a round house kick I would just do an oblique kick to the back of the leg.

    But again. this is probably less than a 10% chance that i would do something like that. even in a fight. My fighting strategy is to target what ever is open so if I don't see the opportunity to kick that back leg then I won't. I don't force techniques just because I want to. I take what my opponents is willing to give.(leave open)
    upload_2019-10-22_0-43-24.png


    The
     
  20. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    @JowGaWolf I'll try my best to be coherent, but I can't make any promises... It's likely to be a mash of points.

    Everything here is a reflection of me, it's not what everyone does and it's not even the standard training in the style(s) I take - it's me, and if anyone else does the same it's best to view it as coincidental.

    I rarely leg check, and on the occasions I do it's not always to protect that leg. I'll use it to cover that leg, the other leg, my ribs...

    I'm never going to be there waiting to leg check.

    When I do do it, it's almost never the stereotypical slow sweep movement shown in demos - it's a fast twitch block/check. This means that I can do 'my' check with a weighted leg - it's just not what you seem to be expecting in your 'bonus clip' trying to leg lift, which I fully agree isn't possible unless you can levitate.

    I don't do the type of stance that's (what I consider) rooted - the 'sink into the ground' style. So, even if I have 90+% of my weight on one leg I can move that leg without shifting my upper body about - I just have to replace that support (either with the other leg or by putting that leg back) before gravity realises it's not being counteracted ;)

    So, the leg switch can work too - a check or a switch isn't going to be planned, it's entirely reactive and only going to happen if something is coming.

    I'm going to have to be pretty fast to avoid or check your kick, but you'll have to be twice as fast (or more) to redirect it to account for that defence.

    Sidestepping - that's not going to happen for me, I'm crap at it. I just can't shift my mass fast enough to make that happen, and while backstepping is a little easier for me, it's not reliable (again, for me).

    I'm going to send you a related pm...
     

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