Meaning of Chon-Ji

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Azulx, Jun 8, 2016.

  1. Azulx

    Azulx Black Belt

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    I have a textbook on the Ch'ang Hon forms and it says that this form represents the Heaven and Earth. It says that the form begins pointing downward to represent the Heaven and the upward to represent the Earth. Why is this? Wouldn't downward represent the Earth and upwards represent the Heavens?
     
  2. ShawnP

    ShawnP Blue Belt

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    maybe your looking at it from the opposite perspective....if its strikes i would assume they are coming from above down...from the heavens...IDK just a guess.
     
  3. Azulx

    Azulx Black Belt

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    Woah... You might be on to something. It make sense.
     
  4. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    Does the author give any citation for the directions of the blocks meaning heaven and earth, respectively? Such information is absent in every text written by Gen. Choi since 1965 so I'd be very interested in hearing where that information comes from.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  5. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I've never heard that description used for Chon Ji...
    On the other hand... maybe whatever mythology this particular "heaven" is based on is down.
     
  6. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    Not that this necessarily explains anything, but I've always thought it interesting that the first Taegeuk form is "the heavens" and the last form is "the earth"....as in, one would think that you would start at the earth and then work your way upwards to the heavens -- but no, you start at the heavens and then work your way downward to the earth. It's another bit of odd topsiterviness that perhaps points to some kind of cultural difference between how Asian and European societies think about "up" vs "down".
     
  7. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Well... "heaven" and "earth" are overly simplified descriptions of the meaning of those symbols. Each of the gwae is tied to multiple meanings/traits, not just one.
     
  8. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    You mean some text on the Chang Hon forms not written by the creator could have been mistaken? (We know the forms creator even had errors in his texts.)
     
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  9. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    I always took it as the first part of the pattern with the forward stances to represent Heaven and the second part with the back stances to represent Earth. The thought just occurred to me just now with the stances; forward to Heaven, back to Earth.
     
  10. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    Double post.
    Double Post.jpg
     
  11. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    Just saying it's possible ;)

    In all seriousness, I'd be interested in knowing the source of this information. There were things that Gen. Choi didn't include in the books (such as the meaning of the stomping motion in movement 38 of Tong-Il). But I'm reticent to accept things as a definitive answer unless I can at least see if the source for such information is itself reliable.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  12. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    It strikes me as being possible that someone is confusing the gwae/philosophical links of the taegeuk and palgwae forms with those of the chang hon...
     
  13. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    Heaven Earth and Man are deeper rooted in Korean culture than the Gwae. Samjae / Haneul / Tang / Saram.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
     
  14. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    On on the same page. What I know about Tong Il is #1 - 1 Country #2 - Divided #3 suddenly attacked #38 Breaking the 38th parallel. Any more?
     
  15. escuelafraternidad

    escuelafraternidad White Belt

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    Chon-Ji meaning is about "the Heaven, the Earth". It refers to Um-Yang duality.
    1- The first part has an arm low block pointing downwards,from the Heaven to mankind, meaning the Heaven. The second part has a medium block pointing upwards, from Earth to Heaven, meaning the Earth. (Explanation given from GM Marano)
    2-The cross shaped diagram represents the four elements of the universe: fire, water, air and earth.
    3- Chon-ji, "heavenly" lake, is also the name given a large crater lake on Paektu Mountain, an extinct volcano said to have been the first residence of the legendary founder of Korea,
    Dan-Gun.

    Raul Bustamante
    5° Dan ITF
     
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  16. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    Interesting perspective. I would like to know where / how GM Marano obtained this insight.
     
  17. escuelafraternidad

    escuelafraternidad White Belt

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    I know GM Hector Marano was in at least 10 international courses with General Choi Hon Hi. Besides, he was one of the 9 only Western disciples that received the "Prize for Loyalty", in 1994. So the the answer probably would be: directly from Choi Hon Hi.
     
  18. escuelafraternidad

    escuelafraternidad White Belt

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    I heard from GM Marano the explanation of stomping in 38th movement in an IIC. General Choi Hon Hi, wanted to leave a trace of the annoyance caused by the separation of Korea.

    Raul Bustamante.
    5th Dan ITF
     
  19. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    I was at 7 with General Choi and hosted one. (Also 2 of which GM Marano was on the teaching team. Never heard General Choi say that. Which of course proves nothing.(Meaning GM Marano could have heard him say it.)

    "I heard from GM Marano the explanation of stomping in 38th movement in an IIC. General Choi Hon Hi, wanted to leave a trace of the annoyance caused by the separation of Korea."
    This is in Pattern Tong Il which is named for "Unification" - General Choi's hope of unifying Korea. #38 stamping is to signify Breaking the 38th Parallel separating Korea with the resulting unification. I know because I (and over the years many others) heard him say so. FWIW in this pattern: #1 - One Country, #2 Divided #3 Suddenly attacked. Those along with #38 are the only meanings I heard him say.
     
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  20. escuelafraternidad

    escuelafraternidad White Belt

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    Dear GM Earl Weiss
    I don't like to confront with you. I only try to offer to you (and everybody) the few things I know. Obviously, I repeat the things I learnt from my Master, or from IICs. Readers are prevented to filter things they don´t like or uncertain source. I offered my source too. It is up to you to save in your mind or not.

    Talking about Tong-il stomping, it is not still my tul, so perhaps I misunderstood GM Marano.
     

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