McDojo Pt. 2 -- Follow up Thoughts

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just an aside, I went to my daughters interview for highschool with her recently. During the very intense interview he noted on her application that she is one belt from black belt in tkd. This drew more attention than any of her other achievments. I spoke to the principal after the interview regarding this and he said most schools regard having a black belt very highly, and said that alone would go a long way toward her application being successful. It got me thinking that mcdojos handing out black belts easily serve a vital role for parents wanting to add some "fluff" to their child's resume.

I agree with you there. While not universal, there are certainly many parents who seem to have a check list; gymnastics, violin, piano lessons, black belt in TKD (or any other art), etc. They check off each activity and are genuinely proud that they have given their child so much enrichment. While I think that there is a part of it that is good; the child gets exposure to the martial arts, it also usually means that after the child earns his/her black belt, they are quitting and miss the concept that the black belt is really just a beginning.

 

[Earl Weiss]

LOL. So, you're saying that my opinion is wrong? Or are you saying that your definition of a McDojo is not opinion? If the definition of a McDojo is so concrete, why do we have so many threads, both active and archived, on the subject? It seems to me that the definition of McDojo is far from canon.

There are a lot of elements going into what may or may not be a McDojo. You are the only one on this board who seems to think it has a non negative possibility. BTW I use Canons for shooting.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

There are a lot of elements going into what may or may not be a McDojo. You are the only one on this board who seems to think it has a non negative possibility. BTW I use Canons for shooting.

Exactly. I think almost everyone here has the same idea (give or take some minor details) about what a mcdojo is. The two common elements are that it does not describe a business model and that it is a negative term.

 

[Makalakumu]

Exactly. I think almost everyone here has the same idea (give or take some minor details) about what a mcdojo is. The two common elements are that it does not describe a business model and that it is a negative term.

If it doesn't describe a business model, what does the "Mc" in Mcdojo refer to?

 

[granfire]

If it doesn't describe a business model, what does the "Mc" in Mcdojo refer to?

:lfao:

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If it doesn't describe a business model, what does the "Mc" in Mcdojo refer to?

business type ie. cheap n' nasty, as opposed to business model/strategy

 

[Makalakumu]

business type ie. cheap n' nasty, as opposed to business model/strategy

That sounds like a business model to me. :uhyeah:

When I see the addition of the "Mc" I think it refers to a uniform, franchised product, where quality is standardized broadly. Consequently, the bar is set lower then establishments that are more specialized. McDonalds made this famous and it has actually made the addition of the "Mc" to other things trite. I think this is a pretty common understanding in the business world and in the minds of most people.

That said, I don't understand the sentiment that McDojo isn't referring to a business model. I think it obviously does and I think that the fact that it does allows us to predict certain things about the business. McDojo may be a pejorative term, but if we dig into it a little, we can also see that it obviously applies to a certain type of business model.

 

[Dobbelsteen]

Guys, I understand that McDojo is a put down. I'm asking you guys to consider an alternative point of view. You are not wrong, but I am also not wrong. These are opinions.

As Gorilla states above, the term is often used as an insult toward schools that make money. It is implied that for a school to be successful, they surely must sacrifice quality. I've shared an example in BJJ of a group that is very successful AND maintains high standards.

So, what I'm suggesting is that you consider that the term isn't as much about quality in real life. It's an implication that is often not true, and that the quality of the instruction, whether through fraud, greed or incompetence, is another issue entirely.

After all, to some people, commercialism is itself a bad word. To others, though, like myself, commercial success only makes sense. After all, why do something "for a living" if you don't intend to earn your living in its pursuit?

McDojo implies that they make money by selling poor quality products. McDonalds is a successful business and there is nothing wrong with that. But for a restaurant which sells quality food it will be an insult to be compared to McDonalds, no matter how much of a financial success they are. So it seems to me that calling a high quality martial art school a McDojo is just as insulting, even when they make a lot of money.

 

[Jaeimseu]

McDojo implies that they make money by selling poor quality products. McDonalds is a successful business and there is nothing wrong with that. But for a restaurant which sells quality food it will be an insult to be compared to McDonalds, no matter how much of a financial success they are. So it seems to me that calling a high quality martial art school a McDojo is just as insulting, even when they make a lot of money.

There are a great many restaurants that aspire to be compared with McDonald's. There's really nothing wrong with McDonald's as a product. They aren't marketing themselves as a gourmet restaurant. McDonald's is a leader in the fast food industry for a reason. And it's not only because it's fast. There is plenty of competition in the market.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I find it very interesting that people are defending McDojo's.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Tez3]

There are a great many restaurants that aspire to be compared with McDonald's. There's really nothing wrong with McDonald's as a product. They aren't marketing themselves as a gourmet restaurant. McDonald's is a leader in the fast food industry for a reason. And it's not only because it's fast. There is plenty of competition in the market.

You haven't seen the one near me then lol, like everything in this area it's slow and leisurely.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I find it very interesting that people are defending McDojo's.

Pax,

Chris

I'm not defending legitimate mcdojangs, but I think all to often people throw that word around out of bitterness or because the training is different from their own ideal.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Sure, and IIRC, some people have already pointed that out. But the idea that McDonald's is a business model to be emulated so maybe McDojo's are really good is just a bit odd. I think some people are trying too hard to split hairs when it's unnecessary, that's all.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Tez3]

Sure, and IIRC, some people have already pointed that out. But the idea that McDonald's is a business model to be emulated so maybe McDojo's are really good is just a bit odd. I think some people are trying too hard to split hairs when it's unnecessary, that's all.

Pax,

Chris

McDs as a business model for fast food outlets is an excellent one, I don't see how it can be a good one for martial arts though, it's such a different 'product' from fast food you couldn't really follow their business model.
Martial arts as a 'product' would follow something like the Royal Ballet School. http://www.royal-ballet-school.org.uk/mission.php?s=1 or a music conservatoire

 

[Gorilla]

I find it very interesting that people are defending McDojo's.

Pax,

Chris

I for one hate the term! It thrown around to loosely by to many people. If you do this you are a McDojo/McDojang.

I understand there is bad product out there! My son was a Poom belt at 8 and the vitriol that was thrown around was quite thick. A well known poster on this BBS said his instructor should be slapped.

It is almost 4 years latter and my sons has been in the Martial arts for 11 years total.

He is a 3rd Dan KKW ( had it transferred to Dan grade when he turned 15). He is also Shodan in Shotokan Karate.

Will test for 4th Dan KKW at 18 if his current development continues. He was a 3rd Poom before 13 so he is elgible at 18 for 4th.

Allot of people have questioned his credentials but never the people who know him as a Martial Artist! His work ethic and dedication are very high!

The word McDojo has been thrown in regards to my son because of his early development slash promotions. He has never attended a McDojang or McDojo!

 

[Tez3]

I for one hate the term! It thrown around to loosely by to many people. If you do this you are a McDojo/McDojang.

I understand there is bad product out there! My son was a Poom belt at 8 and the vitriol that was thrown around was quite thick. A well known poster on this BBS said his instructor should be slapped.

It is almost 4 years latter and my sons has been in the Martial arts for 11 years total.

He is a 3rd Dan KKW ( had it transferred to Dan grade when he turned 15). He is also Shodan in Shotokan Karate.

Will test for 4th Dan KKW at 18 if his current development continues. He was a 3rd Poom before 13 so he is elgible at 18 for 4th.

Allot of people have questioned his credentials but never the people who know him as a Martial Artist! His work ethic and dedication are very high!

The word McDojo has been thrown in regards to my son because of his early development slash promotions. He has never attended a McDojang or McDojo!

It's easy enough to see why you got the flak, it's because the rapid promotion of children is considered one of the defining features of a McDojo so you can't have been surprised. They also see high ranking youngsters as being a marker for a McDojo and to be honest it is hard to not argue that such high rank as such a young age is something that may not be considered desirable.
I'm sure he's everything you say he is but surely you must see where people are coming from?

 

[chrispillertkd]

I for one hate the term! It thrown around to loosely by to many people. If you do this you are a McDojo/McDojang.

I understand there is bad product out there! My son was a Poom belt at 8 and the vitriol that was thrown around was quite thick. A well known poster on this BBS said his instructor should be slapped.

It is almost 4 years latter and my sons has been in the Martial arts for 11 years total.

He is a 3rd Dan KKW ( had it transferred to Dan grade when he turned 15).

I'm not really clear on your timeline here. If your son was first poom at 8 and 4 years later he's trained for a total of 11 years does that mean he started at 1? That can't be right since you say he transferred to dan rank at 15.

Will test for 4th Dan KKW at 18 if his current development continues. He was a 3rd Poom before 13 so he is elgible at 18 for 4th.

Allot of people have questioned his credentials but never the people who know him as a Martial Artist! His work ethic and dedication are very high!

The word McDojo has been thrown in regards to my son because of his early development slash promotions. He has never attended a McDojang or McDojo!

The KKW can have whatever age requirements it wants. If you are happy with your son's training then who cares what other people say? (I always hear people say similar things when asked about rank, training, etc.) If he has received quality training, and all of your posts on the subject seem to confirm that he has, then almost by definition he doesn't attend a McDojo. But that certainly doesn't mean they don't exist.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gorilla]

It's easy enough to see why you got the flak, it's because the rapid promotion of children is considered one of the defining features of a McDojo so you can't have been surprised. They also see high ranking youngsters as being a marker for a McDojo and to be honest it is hard to not argue that such high rank as such a young age is something that may not be considered desirable.
I'm sure he's everything you say he is but surely you must see where people are coming from?

I understand why people might think that way... the rush to judgement was at light speed! It was also stated in terms that left no room for the possibility of any understanding! For many it is still that way! It sounds to good to be true but yesterday he trained in Tkd/Karate and Yoga...today Karate and Judo! Charlie loves martial arts it is his life!

BTW we will finish the day with UFC on fuel Brian Stan v Wanderlei Silva. It is fighting 24/7 in our house.

Will be in Europe (Hamburg, Germany) for Tkd next week(German open). My daughter is fighting with the AAU National Team!

 

[Makalakumu]

McDs as a business model for fast food outlets is an excellent one, I don't see how it can be a good one for martial arts though, it's such a different 'product' from fast food you couldn't really follow their business model.
Martial arts as a 'product' would follow something like the Royal Ballet School. http://www.royal-ballet-school.org.uk/mission.php?s=1 or a music conservatoire

That's a great example of a high quality business and I'm sure that there are many martial arts schools like that. I train at a jujutsu school like that.

On the other hand, I still think it doesn't matter what we want our training to look like. Other consumers want Mcdojos. They like giving their money to a big franchise and they are perfectly pleased with the quality of the product. I don't think this is bad for the martial arts, because it just gets more people training. The high quality schools benefit because the people who train in Mcdojos and want more were introduced to training by the Mcdojo.

It's a win win situation from a business standpoint.

 

[granfire]

It's easy enough to see why you got the flak, it's because the rapid promotion of children is considered one of the defining features of a McDojo so you can't have been surprised. They also see high ranking youngsters as being a marker for a McDojo and to be honest it is hard to not argue that such high rank as such a young age is something that may not be considered desirable.
I'm sure he's everything you say he is but surely you must see where people are coming from?

On the other hand, I see that type of criticism coming from 'old' people who are barely able to kick above the waist line or ascend a flight of stairs without encountering shortness of breath. Or they have a twinge of jealousy, because they have been at it for a decade....

I have seen many black belts under the age of 18. With the exception of maybe one who was really not into the spirit of things, I think most of them would have made the transition from our 'belt mill' dojang to a serious club with little problems. They had the ability and maturity. Quiet a few surprised me when I first met them, to learn how young they really were.