McDojo Pt. 2 -- Follow up Thoughts

[ralphmcpherson]

Im hesitant to say anything, because i dont want to pick on a kid. So, ill scoot around the edge of the discussion and say that what criteria you place on being a black belt will vary from place to place.

Its a hard one, I was also hesitant to comment for the same reason, but it isnt the kid's fault, they are too young to know any different. They just train hard and get promoted, we cant blame them for not handing the black belt back. As you say, criteria changes from place to place, it doesnt mean we have to agree with that criteria though.

 

[Metal]

Check kkw requirements. Believe you must be 21 for 4th dan. Even that is young. Imagine A 4th dan at age 18 issuing certificates. Totally laughable.

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp

See Article 8 for the minimum wait time between ranks and for the age limits. For Poom Holders the minimum age for 4th Dan is indeed 18.




Here in Germany you need to have an examiner/testing-license if you're a member of the National Taekwondo Association and want to coduct belt tests and issue certificates. The German examiner licenses are like this:

License A:

- minimum Age: 40
- minimum Dan: 6th
- can test applicants 5th dan and higher

License B:

- minimum Age: 30
- minimum Dan: 4th
- can test applicants up to 4th dan

License C:

- minimum Age: 21
- minimum Dan: 3rd
- can test applicants up to 1st kup


I think that's a good solution.



Anyway, the whole black belts kiddies thing isn't that much of an issue over here. Of course you always have a few Poom holders at the Dan Promotion tests, but most of the time those are around 13 or 14. Most clubs do testings twice per year, so it usually takes around 6 years to make it to 1st Poom / 1st Dan.

The French even introduced 15 kup grades for kids, so that they can test regularly, but won't reach Poom/Dan too early.


Having a kid starting at 4 and reaching poom grade at the age of 7 is rushing things unnecessarily, IMO.

 

[Tez3]

yep, up to par.

The not so pretty side of the discussion.

FWIW, we allow kids of this age to cary guns, to enlist in the armed forces...
but they are too young to 'issue certificates'


How come practitioners of the Art fall for the BB myth?

As much as I generally respect each of you, this is not one of the reasons.

True enough that kids of this age are allowed to join the Armed Forces but they start as recruits and won't gain rank until years and a lot of experience into their service.
Here you can't drive a car on the road until you are 17, once you have passed your test you are still classed by insurance companies as a 'beginner' and will be charged a fortune, the cost doesn't start coming down until you gain age and experience. In many countries it's required that drivers who have just passed their test can't exceed a certain speed and have a large 'P' sign on their vehicle.

We don't carry guns here as such and there's several children here with shotgun licences however no one would be happy to have a child lead out a shooting party.

With a black belt who is going to be in charge of gradings it's down to their experience of handling people, knowing their strengths, their weaknesses, whether they are trying their best etc etc not about whether the instructor can fight or do the best kicks, it's something that comes from experience not the actual training in martial arts which is why most would prefer an older, experienced person conducting testing.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'm going to carefully step into this thread...

There has, unfortunately, been a paradigm shift in earning a BB. To illustrate this, here are two examples that I've mentioned before. The first example is a former member here stating that he had had issued poom belts to as young as 4 years old. He further stated that he wished the KKW would do away with poom belts altogther and that he saw no issue in a 4 year old child being a black belt. On the other side of the coin was several Okinawan men that trained with George Mattson Sensei while he visited the country. All of them wore white belts during the training. However, they obviously weren't white belts. Mattson Sensei discovered after the training session that they were all Godan (5th degree BB). When asked why they weren't wearing their BB, they stated that they just never got around to getting one and that they didn't think a different colored cloth would improved their training.

So here we see two viewpoints, perhaps on the opposite sides of the issue.

So this raises some honest questions. Does little Johnny 'need' to be a BB at age 4 or 7 or 12? Does littly Johnny need to be a 3rd Dan at 15 or a 'master' at 18? Is this a carrot to keep the kid interested? If so, that doesn't speak very highly of the training itself maintaining interest. Do the parents 'need' little Johnny to be a BB at a young age? If so, are they feeding little Johnny a fast-food mentality on the arts or are they promoting a life-long pursuit for the sake of the training itself?

This thread is not going to change the industry...because that is exactly what some segments of the martial arts have become, an industry. It is not going to change the minds of either side of the issue. For some, there is too much money invested to change. For some, there is too much money to be made to change. For some, it will be a source of continual aggrivation. For some, it will be a source of continual amusement.

It is what it is and unfortunately it is the child, imho, that suffers in the long run.

 

[jks9199]

Folks, things are getting a bit heated & personal here. Rein it in. Stick to the topic without looking to make slams on each other.

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite & respectful.

jks9199
MT Asst. Administrator

 

[Kong Soo Do]

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp

See Article 8 for the minimum wait time between ranks and for the age limits. For Poom Holders the minimum age for 4th Dan is indeed 18.

This is correct. An 18 yr old can be a 4th Dan in the KKW.

 

[Rumy73]

I'm going to carefully step into this thread...

There has, unfortunately, been a paradigm shift in earning a BB. To illustrate this, here are two examples that I've mentioned before. The first example is a former member here stating that he had had issued poom belts to as young as 4 years old. He further stated that he wished the KKW would do away with poom belts altogther and that he saw no issue in a 4 year old child being a black belt. On the other side of the coin was several Okinawan men that trained with George Mattson Sensei while he visited the country. All of them wore white belts during the training. However, they obviously weren't white belts. Mattson Sensei discovered after the training session that they were all Godan (5th degree BB). When asked why they weren't wearing their BB, they stated that they just never got around to getting one and that they didn't think a different colored cloth would improved their training.

So here we see two viewpoints, perhaps on the opposite sides of the issue.

So this raises some honest questions. Does little Johnny 'need' to be a BB at age 4 or 7 or 12? Does littly Johnny need to be a 3rd Dan at 15 or a 'master' at 18? Is this a carrot to keep the kid interested? If so, that doesn't speak very highly of the training itself maintaining interest. Do the parents 'need' little Johnny to be a BB at a young age? If so, are they feeding little Johnny a fast-food mentality on the arts or are they promoting a life-long pursuit for the sake of the training itself?

This thread is not going to change the industry...because that is exactly what some segments of the martial arts have become, an industry. It is not going to change the minds of either side of the issue. For some, there is too much money invested to change. For some, there is too much money to be made to change. For some, it will be a source of continual aggrivation. For some, it will be a source of continual amusement.

It is what it is and unfortunately it is the child, imho, that suffers in the long run.

BBs issued to children are for the ego of the parents. It is a marketing tool. Once schools started issuing BBs to teens things inevitably spiraled downwards in terms of age requirements. If 18 is ok, why not 16, then why not 12, and now why not 7? The schools are reacting (sadly) to a society where commitment and self worth hinges too greatly on reward. But lets not let schools off the hook so easily nor MA systems were central bodies have endorsed this approach. The youth market offers great profit potential. Create a program that makes little Suzy or Raquim a BB in a clearly defined, short period of time is what sells. For the sake of the parents' egos, and the schools' pecuniary interests, we are birthing a generation of MA youths who think they have mastered something that is a life's journey. When I see the arrogance and lack of humility, I feel sorry for them.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Ralph...who are you to make judgements...disappointing...

Ralph has as much of a right to make a judgement on the topic as you do. You think it's good and have said so, he thinks it's not and has said so. (Your son is exceptional. That doesn't mean making promotion to 4th dan at 18 the norm is a good idea.) What you're really saying is, "Ralph ... who are you to make judgements that differ from mine ... disappointing."

We all make judgements about how things are run all the time. My point in my previous post was that if you're happy with your son's training and his promotion to 4th dan in a few years then who cares what other people think, not that they don't have a right to think them.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp

See Article 8 for the minimum wait time between ranks and for the age limits. For Poom Holders the minimum age for 4th Dan is indeed 18.




Here in Germany you need to have an examiner/testing-license if you're a member of the National Taekwondo Association and want to coduct belt tests and issue certificates. The German examiner licenses are like this:

License A:

- minimum Age: 40
- minimum Dan: 6th
- can test applicants 5th dan and higher

License B:

- minimum Age: 30
- minimum Dan: 4th
- can test applicants up to 4th dan

License C:

- minimum Age: 21
- minimum Dan: 3rd
- can test applicants up to 1st kup


I think that's a good solution.

If your national organization is affiliated with the KKW then why does it need a "solution" in the first place?

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gorilla]

Finally a thread that is fun to read....everything I have said in this thread is true!

It's funny both my kids trained with the Spanish Natiomal Team Coach for WKF KARATE yesterday.

It was a great experience...he seemed fine with my kids rank!

They are trained and Coached by an Olympic gold medalist! She has no problem with there rank.

My kids travel all over the world doing Martial Arts...they hold BB in two Martial Arts...

These are all facts! BTW my daughter is a 18year old 3rd degree BB won't be eligible for 4th until 21!

She also holds Shodan Rank in Shotokan Karate!
:flame:

 

[Steve]

Its not a judgement, its my opinion. The whole concept of a forum is for people to voice their opinions. In my "opinion" an 18 year old 4th dan in anything makes no sense, and I can assure you I am far from alone on this one. The wider martial arts community regularly questions such young people with high rank. I just hope for the sake of the kkw's credibility that the post above me is correct in that you must be 21 to obtain fouth dan. Still way to young in my opinion, but not as ridiculous as 18.

In your system, right? I mean, 4th Dan will mean something completely different from one style of martial arts to the next. In bjj, an 18 year old 2nd Dan would be very odd. But in TKD, I understand its not uncommon.

I'm not sure many reliable conclusions can be drawn from a community as diverse as "martial arts."

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Gorilla]

Its not a judgement, its my opinion. The whole concept of a forum is for people to voice their opinions. In my "opinion" an 18 year old 4th dan in anything makes no sense, and I can assure you I am far from alone on this one. The wider martial arts community regularly questions such young people with high rank. I just hope for the sake of the kkw's credibility that the post above me is correct in that you must be 21 to obtain fouth dan. Still way to young in my opinion, but not as ridiculous as 18.

21 is the general rule but in certain cases you can get a 4th degree @ 18.The KKW does not have a credibility problem! Outside of Internet posters! The organization is doing quite well. So is the WTF it came off it's most successful Olympics thus far...and has been confirmed as a core Olympic sport thru 2020.

As far as my son getting his 4th degree at 18...all I have said is that he is on track...he does not have it yet! If his Master see fit he will grant him that rank....

BTW .... I have not seen 4th Dan 18 year old... So the world has not come crumbling down quite yet!

 

[Gorilla]

Steve a 4th Dan 18 year old in KKW TKD isvery uncommon....you see a few 3rd...

ATC, Terry....have you ever seen a sub-21 4th Dan...most use 21 as the min.....

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The KKW does not have a credibility problem! Outside of Internet posters!

With respect, I would suggest that this opinion is not universally shared. I know many, including those of master status within the KKW (some pretty high) that would not agree with your opinion. Conversely, I have seen some that would whole-heartedly agree with your opinion. I think one should follow the reasoning of each group to see what formed their opinion(s).

 

[Gorilla]

Kong Soo Do...lots of rivalary and many different opinions in any large organization...Democrats an Republicans...need I say more...

We are part of the KKW...if you want a career in KKW Tkd rank becomes important...

Charlie and Kym will do this the rest of their lives and at some point rank becomes important if you are part of the KKW...or any large org...

IT is not about my ego!!!! Wether you like the KKW or not...Charlie/Kym have career plans...and rank will be important...for them!!

 

[Makalakumu]

Imagine a 27 year old man with over twenty years of experience. He's in the prime of his life and his body is literally at the peak of its physical capability. I'd wager this man could destroy most black belts. If you look at professional fighters, they hit their peaks in their careers around this time as well. It makes sense that sporting TKD has a ranking system that reflects this.

In other martial arts, there are other things that people learn that require wisdom and experience. It makes sense that it takes longer to earn high ranks and that it puts the practitioner beyond their physical peak. In terms of physical ability, I think the young man noted above will kick the older man's ***, but that isn't the point of some martial arts.

Ultimately, with martial sports, it makes sense to award high achievement as young as possible. This is when physical high achievement is possible.

 

[Tez3]

Imagine a 27 year old man with over twenty years of experience. He's in the prime of his life and his body is literally at the peak of its physical capability. I'd wager this man could destroy most black belts. If you look at professional fighters, they hit their peaks in their careers around this time as well. It makes sense that sporting TKD has a ranking system that reflects this.

In other martial arts, there are other things that people learn that require wisdom and experience. It makes sense that it takes longer to earn high ranks and that it puts the practitioner beyond their physical peak. In terms of physical ability, I think the young man noted above will kick the older man's ***, but that isn't the point of some martial arts.

Ultimately, with martial sports, it makes sense to award high achievement as young as possible. This is when physical high achievement is possible.

You do not, though, always want the fit young fighter to instruct or grade 'ordinary' students. It's common in many sports that the best performer isn't always the best coach/manager. A fit young fighter doesn't need rank,while an instructor would to reassure people he knew what he was talking about.

 

[Gorilla]

You do not, though, always want the fit young fighter to instruct or grade 'ordinary' students. It's common in many sports that the best performer isn't always the best coach/manager. A fit young fighter doesn't need rank,while an instructor would to reassure people he knew what he was talking about.

Some are both athlete and instructor/coach... will have to admit that is very hard one to pull off....never do it at high level tournaments....and the teaching is done mostly in the off season!!!

 

[Unreal Combat]

To me a black belt just means you have learnt the basics of your art, not mastered it. There are some schools that will give them out really easily, regardless of the art. You see some that sell programmes to earn one within a year or two. I've even been offered work by one such school in the past. I declined, I'm not into selling martial arts. You see it alot in Karate and Taekwondo, preying on the popularity of both.

The schools anyone should be looking for is one where the instructor puts his students interests before his own, where he isn't trying to leech cash out of his members at any given chance. I would personally avoid any school that expects me to pay for specific branded equipment that only "they" deem fit for use, and uniforms when one isn't needed (ie: Kickboxing, etc). Or that expects me to pay a subscription fee, annually or monthly to train. If a teacher is worried about the commitment of his students then he should be more worried about why they are not committing to his school. He should be focusing on find ways to encourage them to commit that doesn't involve financial ties.

Personally I think I have trained in some really good classes in my life, met some fantastic teachers (in my opinion), I've never had to pay any more than £4 for a standard training session, regardless of the art, and have never been pressurised into buying anything specific just to train or paying anything more than I need to. It's always be an option at my leisure.

A good school should be focused on the teaching and the interests of the students, not on the money making and interests of the instructors. Schools focused on finance are generally the ones I will always avoid, regardless of their reputation.

 

[Gnarlie]

In a club where I trained and taught, we had two kids start together, at the age of five. Boy and a girl. That was 8 years ago, both are now teenagers. The boy has just done his 2nd Dan, the girl her 1st. Both of them have always trained, but one is more focused on progress than the other.

This is a school that issues KKW certificates and is teaching the KKW syllabus. These kids might not always win in sport competition, but they know their theory, practical application and mechanics for all areas well enough to show others how to teach those things, and what they do practise is practical and realistic for their size, age and weight. They are also capable of assessing whether something is practical or not, because they understand the principles behind what works.

Some people might view it as fast progress, but it depends on your persective, and the kid in question. These two kids can instruct better than quite a lot of adults I've met - especially when they are dealing with other children. Seeing their standard at the grading, another instructor asked how long they had been training for, and looked shocked at the answer, as many of his 1st Kups at the same grading had only been training for 2 or 3 years.

I believe that instructing should be part of a child's martial education, and just because children are involved in instructing, that doesn't make the school a bad one.

Some schools take the scattergun approach to testing- throw enough people in, and some will pass. Other schools make 100% sure that there is no chance of failure unless you break a leg. I know which camp I'm closer to. If kids go to test knowing their stuff well enough to teach it, then they will shine.

All I can say is that there are some very broad brush strokes being painted in this thread, and not every school working the KKW standard is the same.

Certainly 4th Dan under 20 is the absolute exception rather than the rule. But in my opinion the number of years to BB is irrelevant. Only the intensity of training is important, and that's something that one can never see on a bulletin board, so these discussions can go back and forth forever. Training intensity does show in the physical result, though.

I've met 2 year BBs with more knowledge and ability than 8 year BB's, and vice versa. Depends how focused and enquiring the person is.

In my experience of testing to date, those who do not meet the standard at a KKW grading fail. That includes kids.

Gnarlie