McDojo Pt. 2 -- Follow up Thoughts

[Makalakumu]

Ultimately, what I'm suggesting is that we distinguish between a business model and fraud. In the other McDojo thread (no, not that one... the other one... do we have too many threads on the same topic right now?) someone posted an ad where you could be a "native kenpo" black belt for the low, low price of $1280 or so. That's not a McDojo to me. That's a con.

What if someone wants to buy that fantasy? Put yourself into the position of the consumer. Are they victims? How much rigor did they put into their MA research if they are giving the "native kenpo" guy their money? I think the whole Mcdojo debate really fails to see both sides of the economic equation. It tends to focus on the supply side, aka this person is bullshido, but fails to recognize that bullshido fills a legit demand. Our society can afford fantasy in martial arts. Business will capitalize. It's as regular as a law of nature. This whole idea of whether or not it's bad is based off of an inability to understand the economics of the industry.

 

[granfire]

What if someone wants to buy that fantasy? Put yourself into the position of the consumer. Are they victims? How much rigor did they put into their MA research if they are giving the "native kenpo" guy their money? I think the whole Mcdojo debate really fails to see both sides of the economic equation. It tends to focus on the supply side, aka this person is bullshido, but fails to recognize that bullshido fills a legit demand. Our society can afford fantasy in martial arts. Business will capitalize. It's as regular as a law of nature. This whole idea of whether or not it's bad is based off of an inability to understand the economics of the industry.

well, you tell you are a <insert art/fantasy here> BB to the wrong person, you get the crap kicked out of you.

and I also think the Nation is not too pleased with his antics, selling the 'native' gig.

 

[Makalakumu]

well, you tell you are a <insert art/fantasy here> BB to the wrong person, you get the crap kicked out of you.

and I also think the Nation is not too pleased with his antics, selling the 'native' gig.

At least it makes for great youtube videos...

 

[msmitht]

I've seen BJJ schools that I would deem McDojo. They spar, have great instruction and "churn" out world champions. The organization is called Gracie Barra. I have nothing but respect for the GB instructors I know in this area. But the business model is McDojo. And it's helped them become the largest and most powerful affiliation in BJJ.

I will forward this to Carlinhos, whom i know personally. Im sure he will laugh out loud. A mcdojo is a school that sucks and churns out crappy black belts all the time and has shady business practices. I have never seen that in bjj. I attend and teach at a gracie barra in san diego county. If you want to refer to a martial arts school as a mcdojo i suggest you look elsewhere. you are welcome to attend class with me and some fellow brown/black belt friends of mine. We will treat you like everyone who comes through the door: honestly and respectfully.

 

[msmitht]

Don't hate us because we are successful and have maintained quality instruction steve

 

[Steve]

What if someone wants to buy that fantasy? Put yourself into the position of the consumer. Are they victims? How much rigor did they put into their MA research if they are giving the "native kenpo" guy their money? I think the whole Mcdojo debate really fails to see both sides of the economic equation. It tends to focus on the supply side, aka this person is bullshido, but fails to recognize that bullshido fills a legit demand. Our society can afford fantasy in martial arts. Business will capitalize. It's as regular as a law of nature. This whole idea of whether or not it's bad is based off of an inability to understand the economics of the industry.

Are they victims? That depends upon whether there is blatant and intentional misrepresentation. If someone is interested in buying into a fantasy, more power to them, I say. I know people who love to LARP, and there's nothing wrong with it, provided it's being sold as LARPing and not as something else.

This is like the beef/horse meat situation. I have no problem eating horse meat, honestly. I do have a problem with buying what I believe is cow meat that is being sold as horse meat.

 

[Steve]

I will forward this to Carlinhos, whom i know personally. Im sure he will laugh out loud. A mcdojo is a school that sucks and churns out crappy black belts all the time and has shady business practices. I have never seen that in bjj. I attend and teach at a gracie barra in san diego county. If you want to refer to a martial arts school as a mcdojo i suggest you look elsewhere. you are welcome to attend class with me and some fellow brown/black belt friends of mine. We will treat you like everyone who comes through the door: honestly and respectfully.

Whoa! Hey. Hold your horses. I have zero problems with Gracie Barra! I tried to go out of my way to make that clear. I would really, really hate for anyone to think otherwise, as I know many great people who train in the GB family.

Jesus, man. Read the entire post. The point I'm trying to make is that McDojo is about being financially successful, building the business and making money. It has nothing to do with quality control.

Edit: It sounds to me like you presume that McDojo is negative. I get that, and if you define it that way, fine. I don't. I have said several times that I don't begrudge anyone financial success. The distinction that I'm making is that there is financial success (which is good) that can sometimes be achieved through dishonest means (which is bad). The financial success is not a problem. The dishonesty is (at least for me).

Gracie Barra is financially successful, but is not dishonest. HOpe this makes more sense.

 

[granfire]

Whoa! Hey. Hold your horses. I have zero problems with Gracie Barra! I tried to go out of my way to make that clear. I would really, really hate for anyone to think otherwise, as I know many great people who train in the GB family.

Jesus, man. Read the entire post. The point I'm trying to make is that McDojo is about being financially successful, building the business and making money. It has nothing to do with quality control.

Edit: It sounds to me like you presume that McDojo is negative. I get that, and if you define it that way, fine. I don't. I have said several times that I don't begrudge anyone financial success. The distinction that I'm making is that there is financial success (which is good) that can sometimes be achieved through dishonest means (which is bad). The financial success is not a problem. The dishonesty is (at least for me).

Gracie Barra is financially successful, but is not dishonest. HOpe this makes more sense.

Oh mate, you ran into that one wide open...

McDojo is a put down.

Now, does that mean that a system that has it's act together fails or is bad? Heck no.

When the product is alright, Mc away!

But there are a lot that do water down the curriculum and in the end all that is left is one directional cash flow.

I still have not changed, it's several years overdue....the former organization used to be an 'alliance', the turned franchise, while cutting down requirements and increasing fees. They certainly got Mc-ified....great shame, because the program I joined under was pretty good.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Oh mate, you ran into that one wide open...

McDojo is a put down.
I
Now, does that mean that a system that has it's act together fails or is bad? Heck no.

When the product is alright, Mc away!

But there are a lot that do water down the curriculum and in the end all that is left is one directional cash flow.

I still have not changed, it's several years overdue....the former organization used to be an 'alliance', the turned franchise, while cutting down requirements and increasing fees. They certainly got Mc-ified....great shame, because the program I joined under was pretty good.

I have to agree. Mcdojo is a put down, it has negative connotations. I dont know how a really good school, teaching good curriculum with quality teachers can be a mcdojo. As far as I am concerned mcdojo does not mean the business model used, it is a derogatory term for sub standard schools and I am sure thats the way most people view the term. Put it this way, have you ever heard someone say "hey a great new karate school just opened up the road, they have really good black belts and are trained by a former world champion sixth dan. It takes about seven years to get a black belt and its not easy to progress through the ranks but they have trained some national champions there. Oh, but they are a Mcdojo though". That just wouldn't make any sense to most people.

 

[Makalakumu]

Are they victims? That depends upon whether there is blatant and intentional misrepresentation. If someone is interested in buying into a fantasy, more power to them, I say. I know people who love to LARP, and there's nothing wrong with it, provided it's being sold as LARPing and not as something else.

This is like the beef/horse meat situation. I have no problem eating horse meat, honestly. I do have a problem with buying what I believe is cow meat that is being sold as horse meat.

Good point. However, have you ever wondered if civil penalties could ever be filed against people who sell obviously fraudulent products? Are there any real consequences for being a con man in the martial arts industry?

 

[Cyriacus]

Good point. However, have you ever wondered if civil penalties could ever be filed against people who sell obviously fraudulent products? Are there any real consequences for being a con man in the martial arts industry?

You can get away with being a conman as well.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Good point. However, have you ever wondered if civil penalties could ever be filed against people who sell obviously fraudulent products? Are there any real consequences for being a con man in the martial arts industry?

Most numb nuts who mis represent are not afraid of "Civil penalties" since they know someone would have to expend resources to sue them.

BUT, I have from time to time come across people who mis represented themselves to be with an organization I was associated with (or in a couple of cases used a certain logo) I advised them to cease and desist or they would be reported to the authorities as pepetrating criminal fraud. 100% of the time there has been an "Apology" for a mistake and any such representations were removed.

 

[Gorilla]

Mcdojo or Mcdojang is a put down used to many times by certain people to stereotype a certain style or organization!

It is thrown around quite liberally! Many times it is hurled at schools that make money! Not a term I like or use...to easily thrown around!

 

[Steve]

Guys, I understand that McDojo is a put down. I'm asking you guys to consider an alternative point of view. You are not wrong, but I am also not wrong. These are opinions.

As Gorilla states above, the term is often used as an insult toward schools that make money. It is implied that for a school to be successful, they surely must sacrifice quality. I've shared an example in BJJ of a group that is very successful AND maintains high standards.

So, what I'm suggesting is that you consider that the term isn't as much about quality in real life. It's an implication that is often not true, and that the quality of the instruction, whether through fraud, greed or incompetence, is another issue entirely.

After all, to some people, commercialism is itself a bad word. To others, though, like myself, commercial success only makes sense. After all, why do something "for a living" if you don't intend to earn your living in its pursuit?

So, what does "McDojo" mean? Based upon the comments in the three or four different threads on this topic active right now, it means something different to each person. But there is one common thread, and that is commercial success. In some cases, the term is aptly used in a negative way. In others, it's sour grapes by people who have not achieved the same level of success, and so try to imply that their lack of commercial success is actually a good thing.

Bill Mattocks started a very interesting thread on the very point I'm trying to make here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/85039-In-Defense-of-the-McDojo

 

[Cyriacus]

Guys, I understand that McDojo is a put down. I'm asking you guys to consider an alternative point of view. You are not wrong, but I am also not wrong. These are opinions.

As Gorilla states above, the term is often used as an insult toward schools that make money. It is implied that for a school to be successful, they surely must sacrifice quality. I've shared an example in BJJ of a group that is very successful AND maintains high standards.

So, what I'm suggesting is that you consider that the term isn't as much about quality in real life. It's an implication that is often not true, and that the quality of the instruction, whether through fraud, greed or incompetence, is another issue entirely.

After all, to some people, commercialism is itself a bad word. To others, though, like myself, commercial success only makes sense. After all, why do something "for a living" if you don't intend to earn your living in its pursuit?

So, what does "McDojo" mean? Based upon the comments in the three or four different threads on this topic active right now, it means something different to each person. But there is one common thread, and that is commercial success. In some cases, the term is aptly used in a negative way. In others, it's sour grapes by people who have not achieved the same level of success, and so try to imply that their lack of commercial success is actually a good thing.

Bill Mattocks started a very interesting thread on the very point I'm trying to make here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/85039-In-Defense-of-the-McDojo

To be fair, it isnt about whos right and whos wrong.

I mean, to me, ******ing is a way of welding i learnt ages ago. But if i say im going to pop out to the shed and do some ******ing, it sounds like im planning to murder a homosexual or something. It doesnt matter what the word means, its connotations arent going to change.

EDIT: Im fairly confident you can all work out what the word is. It starts with 'fa'. Its the only example i could think of that made sense in this discussion.

 

[Makalakumu]

Perhaps the connection between fraudsters and Mcdojos needs to be re-evaluated. Everyone has a different view of what a Mcdojo is, but I think we're much closer in our views on martial arts con men. Maybe Mcdojo is too good of a perjorative for those guys...lol.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Guys, I understand that McDojo is a put down. I'm asking you guys to consider an alternative point of view. You are not wrong, but I am also not wrong. These are opinions.

.

I would think by now you would have realized that there is a widely accepted definition of the term McDojo. It is not how you choose to define it. it's like the politicians using an invented term "Assault weapons". you can choose to use your unique definition and confuse discussions or you can accept the widely accepted term choosing something else to name your idea. If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? ... I still has 4. calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.

 

[Steve]

I would think by now you would have realized that there is a widely accepted definition of the term McDojo. It is not how you choose to define it. it's like the politicians using an invented term "Assault weapons". you can choose to use your unique definition and confuse discussions or you can accept the widely accepted term choosing something else to name your idea. If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? ... I still has 4. calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.

LOL. So, you're saying that my opinion is wrong? Or are you saying that your definition of a McDojo is not opinion? If the definition of a McDojo is so concrete, why do we have so many threads, both active and archived, on the subject? It seems to me that the definition of McDojo is far from canon.

 

[Twin Fist]

a school can make money, and NOT cut corners on quality

such schools are not mcdojos

it is however very very rare

 

[Tames D]

a school can make money, and NOT cut corners on quality

such schools are not mcdojos

it is however very very rare

I couldn't agree with you more, fanboy.