Martial Sacrilege (part 1)

[jobo]

Yes. That was my point.

no, your point was, that someone who used to be able to do karate can teach, so deserves a black belt. My point is,,,, that some one who has never done karate can read a book and teach just as well as the first guy, so he deserves a black belt as well

 

[Paul_D]

no, your point was, that someone who used to be able to do karate can teach, so deserves a black belt. My point is,,,, that some one who has never done karate can read a book and teach just as well as the first guy, so he deserves a black belt as well

Someone who has never done karate can teach it "just as well" as someone has done karate. What you talkin' 'bout, Willis?

 

[jobo]

Someone who has never done karate can teach it "just as well" as someone has done karate. What you talkin' 'bout, Willis?

if they cant/ don't have to demonstrate it, then anyone can describe how to do it correctly, with a bit of research

 

[Paul_D]

if they cant demonstrate it, then anyone can describe how to do it correctly, with a bit of research

Perhaps, but having never done it, they can't teach it 'just as well' as someone who has done it, as someone who has done it will have learnt things the book won't tell you. So someone who has done it I would say can teach it better?

 

[jobo]

Perhaps, but having never done it, they can't teach it 'just as well' as someone who has done it, as someone who has done it will have learnt things the book won't tell you. So someone who has done it I would say can teach it better?

which books don't contain essential info? They may well teach it a lot better if they have good teaching skills. Being good at something doesn't make you a good teacher

 

[drop bear]

no, your point was, that someone who used to be able to do karate can teach, so deserves a black belt. My point is,,,, that some one who has never done karate can read a book and teach just as well as the first guy, so he deserves a black belt as well

You should be able to translate the information better from first hand experience than from second or third.

 

[jobo]

You should be able to translate the information better from first hand experience than from second or third.

angelo Dundee?

 

[Paul_D]

which books don't contain essential info? They may well teach it a lot better if they have good teaching skills. Being good at something doesn't make you a good teacher

I didn't say essential, but you are bound to learn things by doing them that you didn't learn from the book. Beng good doesn't make you a good teacher no, but that's a different topic.

 

[jobo]

I didn't say essential, but you are bound to learn things by doing them that you didn't learn from the book. Beng good doesn't make you a good teacher no, but that's a different topic.

so you may learn things that arnt right, so your objection to this premise is you may not be able to teach something that isn't essential

no its the same topic

 

[Paul_D]

so you may learn things that arnt right, so your objection to this premise is you may not be able to teach something that isn't essential

no its the same topic

No that's not my objection. Yes you could learn things hat aren't right, but trial and error of dong it with partners will teach its not right, and therefore you can't correct it. Something else that you won't learn from reading it. I'm not saying you can't learn from a book and teach, I'm saying I don't believe you can teach it "just as well" as someone who has done it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no, your point was, that someone who used to be able to do karate can teach, so deserves a black belt. My point is,,,, that some one who has never done karate can read a book and teach just as well as the first guy, so he deserves a black belt as well

Um, no he can't. Find me someone who can teach sparring from a book.

You cited a knowledge-only topic. You probably can teach the theory of that without experience. However, I've seen folks teaching management classes who have no experience, and they universally suck at some parts of it. Why? Because they don't understand the application of the theory. They haven't tried (or even observed) the techniques in use.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

if they cant/ don't have to demonstrate it, then anyone can describe how to do it correctly, with a bit of research

Nope. They won't know what to correct, what to point out in the demonstration someone else does. When I was using others to do my demonstrations after my knee surgery, I had to know who to pick, which meant knowing what to look for in the technique. I also had to know how to describe the key points and answer questions, make corrections when a student messed up, etc. Books can't give that.

 

[Saheim]

Rank means A LOT..... to people who don' train. Seriously, tell your non MA co-workers you train, expect the question "what belt are you?" Some times, I wanna just start making up something like "9th degree Rainbow Belt"

I like what Royce Gracie said - A black belt only covers 2 inches of your @, you gotta cover the rest.

There is only one real alternative, and it aint real appealing: have the gvt step in and standardize MA schools, like an FDA or something. Then, most of the time, a BB in TKD would meet very comparable criteria to the BB awarded in Shorin Ryu. Of course, the arts would probably look the about the same too (other than the uniforms and sign out front).

Rank is simply what YOUR instructor thinks about YOU and YOUR ability, if he is ethical. If he isn't, it is a receipt.

 

[Balrog]

Hello

This is inspired from a thread I saw where the OP made a comment about getting a black belt in a year. There is a possibility that his comment was misunderstood, but in any case he seemed to have quickly received a good deal of disapproval for getting a black belt in such a short time.

I accpet this is a well worn topic, but often it just seems to brushed over with 1 year black belt = Mcdojo, fraud etc. I'd like to have a deeper discussion on the matter with those interested in doing so

My $0.02 worth....

I can teach someone our entire curriculum from White Belt to 1st Degree Black Belt in a year and their technique would be pretty good, but only if they were willing to train 6-8 hours a day (and I were willing to teach 6-8 hours a day). But I feel I would be doing them a disservice if I did.

The "journey" from White Belt to Black Belt is about learning the basics of the art. It's also about developing life skills from your training and to me, those are just as important as the physical skills. My fast track guy certainly has discipline, focus and perseverance, but there are a lot more than those three. And they take time.

I like to use the analogy of baking a cake. The recipe calls for 2 hours in the oven at 150 degrees. I decide I want to turn the temp up to 300 and only leave it in for an hour. What do I wind up with? Something that might look done on the outside but is still raw on the inside.

 

[Buka]

Rank is simply what YOUR instructor thinks about YOU and YOUR ability, if he is ethical. If he isn't, it is a receipt.

I love that line.

 

[skribs]

At my TKD school, it's a minimum of 2.5 years to get your black belt. It takes 12 tests to get your black belt, and we have tests every 2 months. Up until Red belt you can test every time, but to get Red I, Red II, and then black belt there's a minimum 4 month waiting period*. So 9 tests at 2 months each and 3 tests at 4 months each, and you can potentially have your black belt in 30 months. Of course, we have black belt tests only twice a year, so that could be 34 months depending on your timing.

*This is all, of course, barring special permission from the Master. He will sometimes accelerate students who have prior martial arts experience, and sometimes if a student will be moving he will allow them to take additional classes to bump them up a bit before they go.

However, that timing is only if you test every time. Most students do not test every testing period. It's very common that a student will add at least 2 months to every test, which makes it a 4.5 year journey to black belt. We have another student who started a bit before me and tested for yellow belt with me. He might test for his black belt when I test for my 3rd Dan.

In my case, it took me 23 months to get to black belt. After 1 year at the school, my Master gave me the opportunity to do an instructor internship to learn how to be an instructor. This was in part because he needed an instructor, in part because I had prior martial arts experience (4 years in TKD when I was a kid, but I started over as a white belt at his school), and in part because I had no life so I was available to teach. I was at the dojang, either helping with or taking classes, for 20 hours a week. I think that helped entitle me to a bit of a faster progression.

 

[Hyoho]

erars

Hello




This is inspired from a thread I saw where the OP made a comment about getting a black belt in a year. There is a possibility that his comment was misunderstood, but in any case he seemed to have quickly received a good deal of disapproval for getting a black belt in such a short time.

I accpet this is a well worn topic, but often it just seems to brushed over with 1 year black belt = Mcdojo, fraud etc. I'd like to have a deeper discussion on the matter with those interested in doing so

In my martial career I have met a very small number of individuals who receive their 1st dan in a remarkably short time. These individual were part of a recognized organization and for the most part have gone on to achieve great things in their art. I accept that these people are the acceptation but if you met any of them and they told you they received their black belt 15 months, likely you would be suspicious that they did some sort of Mcdojo style.


I believe that normally black belts are attained in the 3-5 year bracket. Is this a true measure of what it take to develop a foundational skill in an art (which I believe black belt should be) or is it some socially accepted length of time to achieve something?

Does the fact that there are some arts that it takes 10 years to get a black belt somehow lessen the 5 year Black Belts?

Under what circumstances would you see a person “fast tracking” to BB as legitimate?


And finally do we have the right to judge what a black belt in a different system means?

A first degree black belt or in Japan 'shodan' is a begginers grade. Somewhere along the line is has got misenterpreted.

Maybe because years ago anyone returning from Japan with shodan was truly an expert, as M.A. used to be and still is double standard in some arts. This not going to alter because some Japanese practice until they drop seven days a week twice a day

But even in Japan you can take up something like Kyudo and reach Nidan within one year. I guess it really dependon what you do ans the standards that are set for the art you do.

To me my enlightenment came when at 42 I realized that belts and grading are not important. And that classical arts just dont have belt system anyway.

Also I was still being pushed into taking a seventh dan and I was told "It's for your students". And I guess I still want to be student myself. I have always like the phrase, "We are all students"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

erars

A first degree black belt or in Japan 'shodan' is a begginers grade. Somewhere along the line is has got misenterpreted.

You have made that statement before, but that is not universal, even in Japan. The founder of NGA in Hokkaido used BB as an instructor designation in the 1960’s.

 

[Saheim]

Here is something I have not heard mentioned yet - sometimes, it can work the other way (I think). A "minimum" amount of time for promotions (which I have seen even for low ranks) can be a sign of "milking". Not always, might not even be often BUT if a school is requiring you to attend (and pay) for a set number of months before you are eligible to test, there could be a monetary reason. Especially if there are also testing fees involved. Just saying - going too fast might not be the only issue, be drug out could also be. No?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is something I have not heard mentioned yet - sometimes, it can work the other way (I think). A "minimum" amount of time for promotions (which is have seen even for low ranks) can be a sign of "milking". Not always, might not even be often BUT if a school is requiring you to attend (and pay) for a set number of months before you are eligible to test, there could be a monetary reason. Especially if there are also testing fees involved. Just saying - going too fast might not be the only issue, be drug out could also be. No?

Minimum times generally work against that concept. With testing fees, it guarantees testing fees are paid less often. Without them, it scares away (and is meant to) those who are only seeking fast promotion. Generally, those are put in place to ensure nobody gets promoted too fast. The only way I can see them as milking is if the student is only there to reach a certain rank - the minimum times would delay that, so more fees. But those students generally aren’t going to stick around, in any case.