Martial arts style v style rant

[drop bear]

I don't think you will find anyone else more biased but anyway. The same thing that happened to karate and Tae Kwon do and various kung fury arts will happen to bjj. The reason these arts had lots of frauds and still do is because there is a high demand for it, it has a high demand because it is popular.

More specifically mma is popular and you rarely ever find a bjj place that is only that, you find mma clubs or mma gyms. These are usually where the "mcdojos" in bjj lay. It doesn't take an expert to throw on some shorts and gloves and do nothing but shoot for takedowns until eventually one does land.

Not saying this is what mma does but the shitty ones sure do. And there is no denying that you haven't seen mcdojos mma gyms. To day that you would have to be biased or blind.

Which is why you need a grounding on what to look for.

I mean does it work in the cage? Definitely applies to mma as well.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Most likely, it'll be fragmenting of the groups that'll make it hardest to police. If someone with legitimate BJJ chops starts a new organization and changes ranking (maybe moving BB closer to what it is in many TMA), that's going to open the door for others, including some who don't have the chops, to claim BB.

BJJ organizations are already pretty darn fragmented - as much so as any other art if not more so.

You are correct that the problem comes when a legitimate instructor decides to lower the standards for ranking. The only protection against that is really community peer pressure. So far that's mostly doing the trick, but twenty years from now things may be different.

 

[Kickboxer101]

I don't think you will find anyone else more biased but anyway. The same thing that happened to karate and Tae Kwon do and various kung fury arts will happen to bjj. The reason these arts had lots of frauds and still do is because there is a high demand for it, it has a high demand because it is popular.

More specifically mma is popular and you rarely ever find a bjj place that is only that, you find mma clubs or mma gyms. These are usually where the "mcdojos" in bjj lay. It doesn't take an expert to throw on some shorts and gloves and do nothing but shoot for takedowns until eventually one does land.

Not saying this is what mma does but the shitty ones sure do. And there is no denying that you haven't seen mcdojos mma gyms. To day that you would have to be biased or blind.

It does happen because I've seen it. About a month back now a friend wanted to start mma at this new club and asked me to come down. So I did I didn't train because I was injured at the time (landed awkwardly throwing a knee somehow don't ask me how lol) but anyway it wasnt a mma gym it was a jiu jitsu school, the instructor was a black belt in jiu jitsu so he was fine in the grappling part but then he started teaching striking and it was obvious he knew as much about striking as I do about jiu jitsu. It was seriously bad he was teaching arm punches basically no hip rotation nothing about keeping a guard up and his kicks were literally flicks no power at all. If I sparred with him in pure stand up I'd have beaten him and so would anyone who knows anything about striking he was seriously bad. So it shows there are frauds in every single style. I didn't share this story before because I knew it'd start an argument with the mma fanboys who can't accept anything else being good unless you get in a cage to prove yourself but well that's already happening on this thread so whatever

 

[Xue Sheng]

So there is some sort of undefined difference that makes it ok when you do it.

But I didn't do it, and never have taken posts out of context and attempted to use those to answer an unrelated post, but it you feel I have please show me where I did and I will be happy to discuss it

 

[Kickboxer101]

But I didn't do it, and never have taken posts out of context and attempted to use those to answer an unrelated post, but it you feel I have please show me where I did and I will be happy to discuss it

Yeah I mean I know I said that on that qi thing or whatever it was called but 2 things. 1 that wasnt martial arts that was a downright con it's not like that was a school teaching bad technique or promoting to quick that was a complete con with 0 training and second sure ill say it here but if I met one of those students down the pub I wouldn't say "oh hey your instructors a con man and a fraud and if you want to prove it lets throw down " which is the point I'm making with this thread

 

[Ironbear24]

Which is why you need a grounding on what to look for.

But what should that grounding be? It shouldn't be avoid such and such style because if that is the case people could end up missing out on great training.

I have been told everything I have done in martial arts is **** by at least a few folks. That is how it is, everyone has their opinion whether or not they are experienced. If I listened to every person to be honest I wouldn't be doing anything, because everything has some people who will call it crap.

For example. When I did American Kenpo Karate it was " that stuff is fake and doesn't work, do boxing." Even on a deeper level it was "don't learn American Kenpo from that guy, that guy is fake and charges too much "

Right because the competitions we won were all fake (rolls eyes). Then it went to "don't do martial arts, all that Chinese crap us ********. Just get a gun because nothing beats that." After that it was " Your sifu is a fake and his sifu was a fraud with a made up lineage and overall fake history."

I never cared about this because all of these opinions are exactly that, opinions that anyone can have whether or not they have any knowledge. I give people benefit of the doubt because in the end the opinion that matters the most is my own.

Sadly there is a risk involved here. The risk of dedicating yourself to a bad outlet of training. Sadly that is a reality many of us have to face because there is always that chance. Even if the instructor is good or phoneomenal, maybe his or her methods won't work for you? There are many things that can happen here that are just out of our hands and are in general going to be unknown until you actually give it a chance.

I myself have been to a mcdojo before in middle school. I was lucky to know it was bs before hand though because I had asked the more senior students if they ever sparred with each other, they literally said to me "what is sparring?" All we and they ever did were hit pads and do moves on the air.

That was my first and only experience with shorin ryu karate, now there are two things I could have done here. I could have gone around and told everyone I know "Shorin Ryu is fake and cheesy" or even worse "karate is fake and cheesy" purely based on my one experience. That would be nothing short of ignorance, now if I said hey that particular shorin ryu karate dojo is not that great because ect ect. That would be much more appropriate.

I think the grounding you are talking about should be the following instead of just avoiding entire fighting arts all together.

1. Know what you want out of the martial art training.

Example: become a pro fighter, simply get in better shape, self defense training. Simply something to do.

2. Look at it more as learning techniques rather than learning a style.

3. Ask yourself will their training regiment be able to help me get what I want out of it?

For me I want to go into karate tournaments and get far there. I don't particularly like mma simply because the attitudes and stigma that surrounds it, that is by no mean meant to offend you or anyone but that is my personal oppionion about it.

More importantly I don't feel comfortable in nothing but board shorts and feel much cooler in a gi. Maybe someday I will go into more mma stuff but for now I am more interested in the more stand up scene. So those are my goals and that is why I am happy where I am at.

It really takes a lot of looking deep down and understanding what it is you exactly want, and nobody can do that except for the individual.

 

[Ironbear24]

It does happen because I've seen it. About a month back now a friend wanted to start mma at this new club and asked me to come down. So I did I didn't train because I was injured at the time (landed awkwardly throwing a knee somehow don't ask me how lol) but anyway it wasnt a mma gym it was a jiu jitsu school, the instructor was a black belt in jiu jitsu so he was fine in the grappling part but then he started teaching striking and it was obvious he knew as much about striking as I do about jiu jitsu. It was seriously bad he was teaching arm punches basically no hip rotation nothing about keeping a guard up and his kicks were literally flicks no power at all. If I sparred with him in pure stand up I'd have beaten him and so would anyone who knows anything about striking he was seriously bad. So it shows there are frauds in every single style. I didn't share this story before because I knew it'd start an argument with the mma fanboys who can't accept anything else being good unless you get in a cage to prove yourself but well that's already happening on this thread so whatever

See that's good that he knows bjj but he could easily have just opened a bjj dojo. Instead of trying to fake what he can't do and just look foolish. Then he is going to teach people crappy striking.

One of the biggest things I admire about my sifu is he is honest even when it can be bad for him to be honest. I asked him if he could show me some bjj because I saw he has a blue belt in it. He told me "No. I cannot teach you something I myself am not a good at doing."

The fact he is also willing to learn other martial arts says a lot to me as well, there are so many instructors out there that think their art has it all and is all around perfection.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It isn't difficult to go online and buy a black belt, they run for about 5 bucks. Rent a cheap place in a mall and push some people around. It won't fool experienced people but it will fool the inexperienced which is where they get their money from.

Good point. I actually know an instructor who paid to test for his Shodan in Judo many years ago. He had never studied it, just tested and got his rank.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So those refinements were not better?

For me, they were. But the style wasn't. I pick what works for me to refine and improve how I do NGA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

BJJ organizations are already pretty darn fragmented - as much so as any other art if not more so.

You are correct that the problem comes when a legitimate instructor decides to lower the standards for ranking. The only protection against that is really community peer pressure. So far that's mostly doing the trick, but twenty years from now things may be different.

I'm more thinking about independents and near-independents. I'm not sure how many of those there are. Within NGA there's a complete mis-alingment of ranks, for instance. The original (to the US, at least - likely abbreviated from the Japanese origin) ranking is the most common. It has 6 dan ranks. There's a contingent that has gone to a 10-dan system, and I'm not quite sure how that lines up with the older system. I went to a 3-dan system (senior student, instructor, senior instructor). All those variations exist because small groups and independent instructors split off from the original organization, each making changes for their own reasons. Now that there's no real parity in ranks, someone could easily claim whatever dan rank they want, and it would be difficult to say categorically that it's not valid unless they claim it was given by someone who disputes that claim.

 

[Kickboxer101]

See that's good that he knows bjj but he could easily have just opened a bjj dojo. Instead of trying to fake what he can't do and just look foolish. Then he is going to teach people crappy striking.

One of the biggest things I admire about my sifu is he is honest even when it can be bad for him to be honest. I asked him if he could show me some bjj because I saw he has a blue belt in it. He told me "No. I cannot teach you something I myself am not a good at doing."

The fact he is also willing to learn other martial arts says a lot to me as well, there are so many instructors out there that think their art has it all and is all around perfection.

Honestly I think a lot of pure grapplers think that striking is so much easier to learn so can just pretend to know it. Now I'm not saying all of them are like this but I have seen a few who say oh striking is easy to learn even a baby can punch. Well yeah sure they can but on the other hand a child can wrap his hands around your neck and choke you as well doesn't mean a baby can do jiu jitsu. Thing is these days if you say your a pure striker people say your one dimensional and wouldn't survive but if someone's a pure grappler apparently that means they're fully ready to fight anyone...well no a pure grappler is just as one dimensional as a pure striker is. But as I'm saying who cares if your one dimensional as long as you enjoy training in that one dimension, if you prefer training in ground and stand up then good on you have fun. Personally I like striking that's what I enjoy. I'm not fussed about ever learning to grapple does that make me one dimensional? Sure maybe. Do I care? Nope not at all same way I don't care if a grappler hates striking and refuses to train that at the end of the day who gives a love. I couldn't care less about what some random guys I don't know train. I'm not an mma fighter so I have 0 need to learn grappling. If I ever chose to do mma then I would do grappling or maybe one day ill want to try jiu jitsu but now I'm more than happy doing what I do so who cares

 

[drop bear]

But I didn't do it, and never have taken posts out of context and attempted to use those to answer an unrelated post, but it you feel I have please show me where I did and I will be happy to discuss it

It is not out of context. It is not unrelated. You participated in a style vs style debate with the O.P.

He has started a thread where he says he does not participate in style vs styled debates.

Now i know you didn't start this thread. You might be mad keen for a style vs style. Or not i dont know. But if i had only posted kickboxers posts it would have been out of context and unrelated. Because people would have only read one half of the conversation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Honestly I think a lot of pure grapplers think that striking is so much easier to learn so can just pretend to know it. Now I'm not saying all of them are like this but I have seen a few who say oh striking is easy to learn even a baby can punch. Well yeah sure they can but on the other hand a child can wrap his hands around your neck and choke you as well doesn't mean a baby can do jiu jitsu. Thing is these days if you say your a pure striker people say your one dimensional and wouldn't survive but if someone's a pure grappler apparently that means they're fully ready to fight anyone...well no a pure grappler is just as one dimensional as a pure striker is. But as I'm saying who cares if your one dimensional as long as you enjoy training in that one dimension, if you prefer training in ground and stand up then good on you have fun. Personally I like striking that's what I enjoy. I'm not fussed about ever learning to grapple does that make me one dimensional? Sure maybe. Do I care? Nope not at all same way I don't care if a grappler hates striking and refuses to train that at the end of the day who gives a love. I couldn't care less about what some random guys I don't know train. I'm not an mma fighter so I have 0 need to learn grappling. If I ever chose to do mma then I would do grappling or maybe one day ill want to try jiu jitsu but now I'm more than happy doing what I do so who cares

I'll also add that even a one-dimensional fighter can be devastatingly effective. I wouldn't want to be the guy who tried to tackle a professional boxer, nor the guy who tried to punch a top-tier BJJer or Olympic Judoka. If you get really good at one dimension, it closes up most of the opportunities for attack.

 

[Kickboxer101]

It is not out of context. It is not unrelated. You participated in a style vs style debate with the O.P.

He has started a thread where he says he does not participate in style vs styled debates.

Now i know you didn't start this thread. You might be mad keen for a style vs style. Or not i dont know. But if i had only posted kickboxers posts it would have been out of context and unrelated. Because people would have only read one half of the conversation.

Firstly that wasnt a style v style because I wasnt comparing it to any other style and like I've said hundreds of times (which you seem to conveniently ignore every time) that's not a style that was a guy waving his hands pretending to be Luke skywalker that wasnt martial arts. Secondly I didn't say I don't talk about style v style stuff I said at the end of the day it doesn't matter and I said I'd never challenge someone or belittle someone or tell them to quit their style. Now could you please read this properly and take it in so I don't have to repeat myself it's getting very boring

 

[Ironbear24]

Honestly I think a lot of pure grapplers think that striking is so much easier to learn so can just pretend to know it. Now I'm not saying all of them are like this but I have seen a few who say oh striking is easy to learn even a baby can punch. Well yeah sure they can but on the other hand a child can wrap his hands around your neck and choke you as well doesn't mean a baby can do jiu jitsu. Thing is these days if you say your a pure striker people say your one dimensional and wouldn't survive but if someone's a pure grappler apparently that means they're fully ready to fight anyone...well no a pure grappler is just as one dimensional as a pure striker is. But as I'm saying who cares if your one dimensional as long as you enjoy training in that one dimension, if you prefer training in ground and stand up then good on you have fun. Personally I like striking that's what I enjoy. I'm not fussed about ever learning to grapple does that make me one dimensional? Sure maybe. Do I care? Nope not at all same way I don't care if a grappler hates striking and refuses to train that at the end of the day who gives a love. I couldn't care less about what some random guys I don't know train. I'm not an mma fighter so I have 0 need to learn grappling. If I ever chose to do mma then I would do grappling or maybe one day ill want to try jiu jitsu but now I'm more than happy doing what I do so who cares

Yup. It also comes down to the understanding that you can become better and better at doing something that is supposedly so simple. I can't count how many times my fists folded at the wrists during a punch because I punched with bad technique, or did hurt my self because I accidentally smacked my toes into someone's hip because I kicked poorly.

It may seem so easy to some but until they really try to perfect it they won't see all the important nuances.

 

[drop bear]

But as I'm saying who cares if your one dimensional as long as you enjoy training in that one dimension, if you prefer training in ground and stand up then good on you have fun.

So have you seen a discussion where people habe said that to enjoy martial arts they have to do a different style?

Because your arguments are not matching up to the sort of discussions neing had.

 

[Kickboxer101]

So have you seen a discussion where people habe said that to enjoy martial arts they have to do a different style?

Because your arguments are not matching up to the sort of discussions neing had.

you're getting very boring please read what I just posted, seriously what is your problem do you enjoy arguments or something

 

[Hanzou]

It isn't difficult to go online and buy a black belt, they run for about 5 bucks. Rent a cheap place in a mall and push some people around. It won't fool experienced people but it will fool the inexperienced which is where they get their money from.

No, it isn't difficult to buy a black belt.

However, it's very difficult to fake being a Bjj black belt. Especially when a real Bjj black belt stops by your school to roll with you and your students. If you and your students are a bunch of scrubs who can't grapple their way out of a paper bag, word is going to travel around very quickly and its only going to lead to MORE real Bjj black belts coming by your school.

That's not even getting into the competitive aspect of Bjj where you and your little cadre of phonies are going to get embarrassed by just about everyone.

In short, it simply doesn't pay to fake a Bjj black belt.

 

[Hanzou]

Honestly I think a lot of pure grapplers think that striking is so much easier to learn so can just pretend to know it. Now I'm not saying all of them are like this but I have seen a few who say oh striking is easy to learn even a baby can punch. Well yeah sure they can but on the other hand a child can wrap his hands around your neck and choke you as well doesn't mean a baby can do jiu jitsu. Thing is these days if you say your a pure striker people say your one dimensional and wouldn't survive but if someone's a pure grappler apparently that means they're fully ready to fight anyone...well no a pure grappler is just as one dimensional as a pure striker is. But as I'm saying who cares if your one dimensional as long as you enjoy training in that one dimension, if you prefer training in ground and stand up then good on you have fun. Personally I like striking that's what I enjoy. I'm not fussed about ever learning to grapple does that make me one dimensional? Sure maybe. Do I care? Nope not at all same way I don't care if a grappler hates striking and refuses to train that at the end of the day who gives a love. I couldn't care less about what some random guys I don't know train. I'm not an mma fighter so I have 0 need to learn grappling. If I ever chose to do mma then I would do grappling or maybe one day ill want to try jiu jitsu but now I'm more than happy doing what I do so who cares

Thing is, Bjj isn't "pure grappling". At least old school Bjj isn't. Watch the Gracie in Action tapes, and Royce in the first UFCs. There's a lot of strikes in Bjj. Headbutts, Punches, Kicks, elbows, etc. its all in there. For example, I was trained to rain blows down on someone's face once I achieved mount. The choke or submission that I used next was dependent on their reaction to my blows.

 

[drop bear]

Firstly that wasnt a style v style because I wasnt comparing it to any other style and like I've said hundreds of times (which you seem to conveniently ignore every time) Secondly I didn't say I don't talk about style v style stuff I said at the end of the day it doesn't matter and I said I'd never challenge someone or belittle someone or tell them to quit their style. Now could you please read this properly and take it in so I don't have to repeat myself it's getting very boring

So this.

that's not a style that was a guy waving his hands pretending to be Luke skywalker that wasnt martial arts.


is not belittling a persons martial arts?

Wait mabye i didnt read it properly. As you claim.

that's not a style that was a guy waving his hands pretending to be Luke skywalker that wasnt martial arts.

Nope still reads as belittling.