Martial arts style v style rant

[Ironbear24]

Very reasonable. But if they wake up and say, "Hey I want to learn to fight," they may want to learn to, you know, fight.

And who is teaching people how to not fight? This argument here is pointless because no "martial arts" place is going to teach you literally nothing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Very reasonable. But if they wake up and say, "Hey I want to learn to fight," they may want to learn to, you know, fight. Which isn't the same as learning kata or learning chi sao.

Then we have to define "fight". If they want to get into an octagon, they need to go to an MMA gym. If they want to compete in a Karate tournament, they need to find the right kind of Karate school. If they want to fight in a boxing ring, they need to find a boxing gym. If they want to learn fighting skills they can use in self-defense, they need to pick something that seems effective for that purpose and appeals to them, personally - which could actually include any or all of those choices, plus some that don't compete.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And who is teaching people how to not fight? This argument here is pointless because no "martial arts" place is going to teach you literally nothing.

No, but there are some I'd argue don't appear to do anything useful toward fighting or defensive skills. If what they teach is bad enough, it won't be useful (and can even be detrimental, if the students actually believe it will work).

 

[Chaleira]

Very reasonable. But if they wake up and say, "Hey I want to learn to fight," they may want to learn to, you know, fight. Which isn't the same as learning kata or learning chi sao.

I can agree, not the same, though they do have their specific place in training. I think the individual at this point though has a very important decision to make. to continue training at this school, or to switch gyms to learn how to "fight"?
Also, the instructor at such a school, does he know how to bridge the gap between training drills designed for specific goals and fighting and if so, can he effectively pass it on to students.
Also, the student... how well do they pick things up? Could they even realize fighting application if it were right in front of their face clear as day?
If not is it the instructor's fault for not being able to drill it into the student... or the student's fault for not applying themselves.... or the "style's" fault for not being complete?

 

[drop bear]

You and others can hold MMA and styles in it to a higher light if you'd like, but people aren't really going to care. People don't wake up in the morning and say "Hey lets impress Dropbear and Steve and Hanzou and gain their approval."

They are going to do what they enjoy and not everyone enjoys what you do, same way many people may not enjoy the things I do.

And that is fine. I don't think i have ever told people that they have to do or enjoy any martial art.

And of course if i have and you can find it and quote it. I will just say it is out of context.

Ok. Let me tell you a story. (And yes it can be taken as true or not because it is a story)

This story happened in proserpine at a place called mixed dojo. There was a father and son team who opened a MMA school and set about promoting their style as people do and even challenging our guys to fights.

And look we are a competition school and we do fights so it is all in good fun. But the guys mixed dojo were challenging were four or five fights in and just decemating people. So they were turned down.

The thing is the father had no real idea about what he was doing and the kid of course just believed his dad was the reincarnation of bruce lee. And so we let them train happily away thinking that pro fighters have ducked their challenges. So they must be doing something right.

Anyway we hold a show and invite the mixed dojo guys to participate. And we find them some first time fighters and everyone is happy.

Exept mixed dojo really wasn't very good, had no ring experience and no idea what they were getting into. And an actual fight is kind of a bit different to the idea of a fight.

So the kid got his jaw broke and the dad wouldn't leave his corner after the first round.

I have no issue letting people train there thing or even letting them find out if they have the stuff or not.

But if i discuss how there might be deficiencys in someone's training it is not always because i want to stand taller than anyone else. Sometimes i just see the bus coming.

 

[drop bear]

I can agree, not the same, though they do have their specific place in training. I think the individual at this point though has a very important decision to make. to continue training at this school, or to switch gyms to learn how to "fight"?
Also, the instructor at such a school, does he know how to bridge the gap between training drills designed for specific goals and fighting and if so, can he effectively pass it on to students.
Also, the student... how well do they pick things up? Could they even realize fighting application if it were right in front of their face clear as day?
If not is it the instructor's fault for not being able to drill it into the student... or the student's fault for not applying themselves.... or the "style's" fault for not being complete?

Yeah. But how often is all the tools laid out in front of you so you can make that honest assessment?

 

[Hanzou]

I was thinking what to call this thread and this isn't my rant its off a YouTube video I saw I know the title of the video says boxer vs wing chun but the end bit is very important he's 100% right.

A question he's asked is would he challenge someone saying a boxer would beat a wing chun guy and in summary says no why would I who cares what have I got to prove. He's so right there's so much style v style nonsense these days that people need to realise its very unlikely 2 trained martial artists are going to throw down in the street so who cares what style would best what just enjoy what you do.

Me I do kenpo and kickboxing now maybe those styles aren't as effective as some in some people's opinion and that's fine your entitled to it. Maybe a wrestler or a jiu jitsu guy would destroy me but here's the thing I don't plan on fighting a jiu jitsu guy anytime soon so why does it matter if he can beat me or I can beat him. If we never fight no one will ever know. We all do our own thing some of us will be better than others some of our styles will work in different ways in different situations doesn't make it right or wrong. We all do our own thing and if it makes us happy and we have fun that's all that matters. That's why I'll never call anyone out about training at a McDojo because if they enjoy their training even though the instructors not great who am I to tell them their school is a fraud.

Here's the video

You truly can do whatever you like. However, if you KNOW you have a weakness, it would be a good idea to get that weakness taken care of in the event (however unlikely) that someone could exploit it and do you harm.

Obviously, the chances of a skilled grappler attacking you is rare, however you're also a man. If you were a woman, those chances increase exponentially, and should be seriously taken into consideration.

Which leads us back to your post; Certainly if you practice whatever and you do it just for fun, you definitely don't have anything to prove to anyone. The problem comes around when someone who legitimately is looking for a martial art to defend themselves (especially women) and they take up a style that is clearly not going to protect them on the most basic level. I'm pretty confident that I could hold my own versus a boxer/striker, or a skilled wrestler, mainly because I've fought against both many times. Some of them were highly skilled individuals who were trying to knock me unconscious. I've also been rolling against highly skilled grapplers for the better part of a decade now, and many of them are former collegiate wrestlers who are also highly ranked in Bjj or highly experienced in MMA (or both). Again, doing that type of consistent fighting has given me a level of confidence in my ability to handle a wide variety of unarmed threats should they happen to come my way. My ability to survive two self defense situations in the last couple of years only enhances that confidence.

That never happened in the previous styles I took. In my previous MAs we did a lot of kata and light sparring. We did drills full of unrealistic responses to unrealistic attacks. Fortunately, I only got beat by a boxer in the safety of my dojo, not the street. If it had been the latter, I shudder to think the level of damage he could have done to me because I lacked the tools to defend myself on even the most basic level.

In short, if I had studied a martial art for years and said that any highly skilled karate guy could walk up and beat the crap out of me, I'd have a serious case of buyer's remorse.

 

[Hanzou]

And who is teaching people how to not fight? This argument here is pointless because no "martial arts" place is going to teach you literally nothing.

There's plenty of places that advertise that they're going to teach you how to fight, but teach you how to dance in funny pajamas instead.

You'd be surprised how many black belts we get that can't fight their way out of a paper bag on their feet. When we get them on their backs, it's like watching a little beetle trying to right itself.

I've seen people freeze up and freak out when you do something as simple as grabbing their lapel and beginning to push or pull. You would think that they have some invisible field around themselves that has suddenly been shattered.

 

[Hanzou]

You and others can hold MMA and styles in it to a higher light if you'd like, but people aren't really going to care. People don't wake up in the morning and say "Hey lets impress Dropbear and Steve and Hanzou and gain their approval."

They are going to do what they enjoy and not everyone enjoys what you do, same way many people may not enjoy the things I do.

Oh I disagree. They do care, which is why so many styles that have nothing to do with MMA or related styles come up with ridiculous and silly counters to things like the Guard, or the Muay Thai Clinch.

 

[Kickboxer101]

You truly can do whatever you like. However, if you KNOW you have a weakness, it would be a good idea to get that weakness taken care of in the event (however unlikely) that someone could exploit it and do you harm.

Obviously, the chances of a skilled grappler attacking you is rare, however you're also a man. If you were a woman, those chances increase exponentially, and should be seriously taken into consideration.

Which leads us back to your post; Certainly if you practice whatever and you do it just for fun, you definitely don't have anything to prove to anyone. The problem comes around when someone who legitimately is looking for a martial art to defend themselves (especially women) and they take up a style that is clearly not going to protect them on the most basic level. I'm pretty confident that I could hold my own versus a boxer/striker, or a skilled wrestler, mainly because I've fought against both many times. Some of them were highly skilled individuals who were trying to knock me unconscious. I've also been rolling against highly skilled grapplers for the better part of a decade now, and many of them are former collegiate wrestlers who are also highly ranked in Bjj or highly experienced in MMA (or both). Again, doing that type of consistent fighting has given me a level of confidence in my ability to handle a wide variety of unarmed threats should they happen to come my way. My ability to survive two self defense situations in the last couple of years only enhances that confidence.

That never happened in the previous styles I took. In my previous MAs we did a lot of kata and light sparring. We did drills full of unrealistic responses to unrealistic attacks. Fortunately, I only got beat by a boxer in the safety of my dojo, not the street. If it had been the latter, I shudder to think the level of damage he could have done to me because I lacked the tools to defend myself on even the most basic level.

In short, if I had studied a martial art for years and said that any highly skilled karate guy could walk up and beat the crap out of me, I'd have a serious case of buyer's remorse.

Yes I knew you'd be one who has a problem with that idea

 

[Ironbear24]

There's plenty of places that advertise that they're going to teach you how to fight, but teach you how to dance in funny pajamas instead.

You'd be surprised how many black belts we get that can't fight their way out of a paper bag on their feet. When we get them on their backs, it's like watching a little beetle trying to right itself.

I've seen people freeze up and freak out when you do something as simple as grabbing their lapel and beginning to push or pull. You would think that they have some invisible field around themselves that has suddenly been shattered.

Oh I disagree. They do care, which is why so many styles that have nothing to do with MMA or related styles come up with ridiculous and silly counters to things like the Guard, or the Muay Thai Clinch.

You guys are getting the topic mixed up here. It isn't mcdojo teachings vs real instruction. It is style vs style. The problems you and drop bear bring up have nothing to do with a style problem, that is an instructor and training problem.

If you have bad training or have access to good training and just don't apply yourself. Then that is where you will end up with poor results. You also misunderstand adaptation for caring about people's opinions. People are practicing more take down and Clinch defense because they are more popular to come across now due to the popularity of mma, they don't do it for your or anyone elses approval.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. But how often is all the tools laid out in front of you so you can make that honest assessment?

More to the point, a fairly new student wouldn't often be capable of making that assessment. This is where I think competition serves the student best. When someone comes to my program, what I do looks impressive perhaps. My students appear to be learning well, and appear to be able to handle common attacks at a reasonable level. But is that reality, or is that just "demo reel" flash? I'm not sure most untrained people can tell the difference. Mind you, I'm not sure most untrained people can identify what's good combat competition vs. aesthetic competition (and I'm not only talking about forms).

One caveat, of course: not everyone is looking to learn combat (I think this has already been mentioned this thread). Some are looking for the beauty of a martial art, and there are schools for that. Some are looking for the fitness aspect of a martial art, and there are schools for that. Some are looking for a new hobby, and there are schools for that. There are many other reasons people look into an art, and there are schools for all of them, as well as schools that blend parts of several reasons. And some of those reasons actually require no ability to fight, at all. Curiously, schools that meet this last set of needs will often still produce reasonable fighting ability eventually - moreso than some schools that claim to develop fighting/self-defense ability but just suck at it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Obviously, the chances of a skilled grappler attacking you is rare, however you're also a man. If you were a woman, those chances increase exponentially, and should be seriously taken into consideration.

I think I know the point you're trying to make, and I think you mis-stated it. The chance of a woman being attacked by a skilled grappler aren't, I think, much higher than those of a man. The issue is that a woman is more likely to be taken to the ground (as opposed to beaten while standing), and will often be facing a larger and stronger opponent (where BJJ does a really good job).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There's plenty of places that advertise that they're going to teach you how to fight, but teach you how to dance in funny pajamas instead.

You'd be surprised how many black belts we get that can't fight their way out of a paper bag on their feet. When we get them on their backs, it's like watching a little beetle trying to right itself.

I've seen people freeze up and freak out when you do something as simple as grabbing their lapel and beginning to push or pull. You would think that they have some invisible field around themselves that has suddenly been shattered.

This is an issue I have with some training methods. It's not at all uncommon in some corners of the aikido arts or their antecedents to find folks who have always receive stylized attacks, and those rarely include things like someone grabbing and shoving with some intent.

 

[drop bear]

More to the point, a fairly new student wouldn't often be capable of making that assessment. This is where I think competition serves the student best. When someone comes to my program, what I do looks impressive perhaps. My students appear to be learning well, and appear to be able to handle common attacks at a reasonable level. But is that reality, or is that just "demo reel" flash? I'm not sure most untrained people can tell the difference. Mind you, I'm not sure most untrained people can identify what's good combat competition vs. aesthetic competition (and I'm not only talking about forms).

One caveat, of course: not everyone is looking to learn combat (I think this has already been mentioned this thread). Some are looking for the beauty of a martial art, and there are schools for that. Some are looking for the fitness aspect of a martial art, and there are schools for that. Some are looking for a new hobby, and there are schools for that. There are many other reasons people look into an art, and there are schools for all of them, as well as schools that blend parts of several reasons. And some of those reasons actually require no ability to fight, at all. Curiously, schools that meet this last set of needs will often still produce reasonable fighting ability eventually - moreso than some schools that claim to develop fighting/self-defense ability but just suck at it.

I agree.

And there are all sorts of variations of the above. Plenty of people in our gym just want to focus on one aspect. Some just box some just wrestle some jits.

So its not like I have an issue with people doing their thing.

What I want is people to get the training they want.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree.

And there are all sorts of variations of the above. Plenty of people in our gym just want to focus on one aspect. Some just box some just wrestle some jits.

So its not like I have an issue with people doing their thing.

What I want is people to get the training they want.

Agreed. I actually have no problem with schools that have sloppy technique or don't teach anything effective for fighting, so long as they don't purport to do either, and aren't doing anything that's unsafe (some sloppy technique, of course, can injure the practitioner). So, for instance, Tae Bo classes cause me no worry. Shin Shin Toitsu schools cause me no worry (folks are there to study Ki, much more than fighting). It's the really bad "self-defense" schools that get under my skin. I've only seen a couple of them personally, and they do bug me.

 

[drop bear]

You guys are getting the topic mixed up here. It isn't mcdojo teachings vs real instruction. It is style vs style. The problems you and drop bear bring up have nothing to do with a style problem, that is an instructor and training problem.

If you have bad training or have access to good training and just don't apply yourself. Then that is where you will end up with poor results. You also misunderstand adaptation for caring about people's opinions. People are practicing more take down and Clinch defense because they are more popular to come across now due to the popularity of mma, they don't do it for your or anyone elses approval.

Well for me the problems i bring up are not really style vs style anyway. Exept mostly by coincidence.

Exept for some specific circumstances.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. I actually have no problem with schools that have sloppy technique or don't teach anything effective for fighting, so long as they don't purport to do either, and aren't doing anything that's unsafe (some sloppy technique, of course, can injure the practitioner). So, for instance, Tae Bo classes cause me no worry. Shin Shin Toitsu schools cause me no worry (folks are there to study Ki, much more than fighting). It's the really bad "self-defense" schools that get under my skin. I've only seen a couple of them personally, and they do bug me.

On that note I also have no issue with styles that are better than me either. Which is the other side of this coin.

So when someone says integrated mma is better because they produce more champions than us. Well. yeah they are.

When someone says that a pro fighter is better than me because he trains harder or is just more talented. Well yes they are.

Or even stylistically

Boxers have better hands.

Jittsers have better submissions.

Our local karate guys can kick our people to death but generally can't box.

And yet these statements are causes for such panty knotting for some people. I think it is an ego thing.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That was multiple posts in sequence so that people could follow the conversion.

It means this thread shows that kickboxer 101 participates in exactly the sort of commentry that he is saying is not cool.

But the posts you quoted were about another situation not the McDojo's issue. It was a side issue, not about stye vs style, it was a case of fraud, and your post was a tad bit misleading by using those posts in answer to the OP post, but so be it, I suppose that is to be expected from some.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

On that note I also have no issue with styles that are better than me either. Which is the other side of this coin.

So when someone says integrated mma is better because they produce more champions than us. Well. yeah they are.

When someone says that a pro fighter is better than me because he trains harder or is just more talented. Well yes they are.

Or even stylistically

Boxers have better hands.

Jittsers have better submissions.

Our local karate guys can kick our people to death but generally can't box.

And yet these statements are causes for such panty knotting for some people. I think it is an ego thing.

Agreed. I am often confused by self-defense-oriented TMA instructors who think they could step into an MMA octagon and kick butt. It's not what they're trained for, and shouldn't expect to excel there unless they raise their intensity level a lot and train for that context.

It's like a discussion I was involved in about 10 years ago. I was talking with a friend who had been a competitive MMA fighter for a while. He and I were basically swapping training war stories (mostly stupid mistakes we made). Another co-worker listening in asked which of us would win if we fought. I pointed at my friend and said, "If he knows I'm coming, I'm probably toast. He trains a lot harder than I do, and he specializes in beating martial artists up." My friend said, "Maybe. I'm not sure I'd want to find out."

He was being nice, IMO. I might get lucky, since he's not used to fighting against my type of art - maybe confuse him with how I move long enough to manage something. But he's trained to deal with martial artists, so I'd put money on him. At the same time, he preferred some of our techniques for self-defense. He had a more limited arsenal, and had started cross-training in some new arts (he was a dabble-and-add guy like me, except he didn't have a primary art at that point) to expand what he had available to him, since he wasn't competing any more.