Martial Arts Magic

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Nomad, Oct 5, 2011.

  1. Nomad

    Nomad Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,206
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Nice article on Bullshido that I hadn't seen before.

    IMO, removing the mysticism from martial arts is a worthy goal, though it would obviously be detrimental to some who survive and thrive on it.
     
  2. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2008
    Messages:
    17,763
    Likes Received:
    3,574
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Covington, WA
    Great article. Thanks for sharing.

    Mostly well written, but I don't agree with this part:
    While I'm not sure about the temple, "the button" I've seen too many times to discount is on the jaw. And it's seen over and over again in MMA. Along with the cartoon style knockout.
     
  3. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,827
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Australia
    Also, take into account Bare Knuckle Fighting.
    A Bare Knuckle to the Temple can be quite Devastating.
     
  4. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    21,842
    Likes Received:
    2,081
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Northern VA
    Didn't somebody post up an article not too long ago suggesting that, in the bare knuckle days, "the button" was actually the solar plexus?
     
  5. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2008
    Messages:
    17,763
    Likes Received:
    3,574
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Covington, WA
    I don't know about the article, but taking a punch to the solar plexus would definitely suck.
     
  6. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    Messages:
    4,685
    Likes Received:
    816
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Possible, I never heard of it though. I'm with stevebjj that the button was on the point of the jaw. I've never heard a medical explanation of that, but always suspected it had to do with the leverage provided snapping the head too quickly for the brain to easily follow. The resulting coup and counter-coup then causing unconsciousness.
     
  7. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,683
    Likes Received:
    264
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Under an Oaktree
    I thought the button was the chin. Hence the expression Take it on the chin.
     
  8. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    Messages:
    4,685
    Likes Received:
    816
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Having read the whole article, it seems there is some misinformation on the part of the writer. To say pressure points that can disable don't exist simply shows ignorance on the writer's part. To say that Ki doesn't exist is the same. Mind you, I am aware that there are MA who don't believe in it either as well, to include some here on MT. I am sorry for them.

    But Dem Mak? Well, I have been taught death blows, but Dem Mak isn't one of them. Nor did my GM ever tell me it was or wasn't true. We never discussed it.
     
  9. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2008
    Messages:
    17,763
    Likes Received:
    3,574
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Covington, WA
    Pressure points? I think most people would agree that there are nerve clusters which can cause pretty severe reactions. It's in how practical or reliable getting to those pressure points can be where the debate comes in.

    Ki or chi... well... yeah. That's getting into some marginal stuff. It's okay, though. Don't feel sorry for me. :)
     
  10. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    21,842
    Likes Received:
    2,081
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Northern VA
    Here's the post I was thinking about: What is "The Mark" in historic boxing
     
  11. joshbrown

    joshbrown Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    And here all along I thought "the button" was a clitoris.....
     
  12. Josh Oakley

    Josh Oakley Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,225
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    Federal Way, WA
    Mild tangent, one of the lessons I do with students is I teach them how to perform the "no hit punch". I give a lengthy explanation about chi and how "you can take these principles and use them to harness the chi energy around and within you and actually PROJECT it into another person!" Then I demonstrate it by having someong stand in front of me, feet together, hands at their sides, do some really cool looking two chi hand movements and throw my arms at them while breathing out forcefully. Almost every time, they go flying backwards. Then while everyone is standing amazed I get another student and do it to them. Now whole people are awestruck by the impossible awesomeness of my anime-like superpowers, I ask them "now why did that work? More importantly, if I hadn't gone through that lengthy explanation at the beginning, would it have worked?" Now comes the moment of doubt. They stand there confused. "Of course it wouldn't, because I made it all up! I can't hit people without touching them, though that would be awesome! And you believed me because you WANTED it to be true, and it was reinforced by those around you. The point of this lesson is to think for yourselves, do your own research, and above all to QUESTION everything. Don't automatically affirm even that which your own eyes are telling you, because we are all gullible to a point. Every single one of us." It's not a verbatim quote, but you get the idea.
     
  13. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    17,221
    Likes Received:
    4,168
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    Medically it's pretty straight forward. Striking the point of the chin pushes the jaw straight back. In doing so, the TMJ dislocates, at least partly. As it's pushed backwards, it compresses the structures behind it.

    One of those structures is the carotid artery. Occluding it, even briefly, can lead to unconciousness. At the very least, the person gets quite dizzy and will find it difficult or impossible to continue to defend themselves.

    The vagus nerve also runs through this area. Amoung other things, the vagus nerve controls (to a greater or lesser degree) diaphragmatic breathing, heart rate and blood pressure. Impacts to this nerve also have a negative affect on your ability to think.

    Strikes from the side of the jaw or head cause violent sideways movement of the head, and unconciousness results from the brain rattling around inside the skull. If it twists the neck, as in a strike the the side of the chin, the twisting of the neck can, to some degree, compress the vascular and neuronal structures in the same manner as the straight punch, albeit only on one side.

    It's worthwhile to keep in mind that arteries are muscular and contract in much the same way as the heart. Strikes that impact the nerves controlling this contraction, especially those in the carotids, can cause the artery to spasm, shutting off, or greatly reducing the flow of blood to the brain. This is a very effective way to render someone unconcious with minimal impact. It does, however, require a great deal of precision, since if the strike is not at exactly the right point AND exactly the right angle, it won't cause the spasm.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Nomad

    Nomad Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,206
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Definitely not when we're talking about combat... ;)
     
  15. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,827
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Australia
    You sure?
    Ive seen a female get hit there, and fall down in pain.


    ​Lets not let this particular discussion go on for too long, Gentry :p
     
  16. David43515

    David43515 Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,383
    Likes Received:
    50
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Sapporo, Japan
    Don`t know where I fall on this one. I`ve always explained 98% of what I can do with simple physics.......but there`s that 2% of what I can do...plus alot of stuff I can`t do but I`ve seen others do: generating heat from their hands or belly(to the point where it`s painful to touch their abdomen), breaking stacks of bricks with no spacers by just a light slap (and I know the bricks aren`t rigged,scratched or baked because I helped buy them at Home Depot and took them to the demo in the trunk of my car) and a few down-right weird things. The Myth Busters might be able to explain it, but I can`t.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    Messages:
    4,685
    Likes Received:
    816
    Trophy Points:
    263
    There are arts that train use of pressure points that will put a person down and keep them down for a while.

    As to Ki, I have experienced it. If you haven't, or didn't recognize it, so be it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2008
    Messages:
    17,763
    Likes Received:
    3,574
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Covington, WA
    Again, I have no doubt that they exist. I am a little more skeptical that hitting them in a self defense situation is reliable.
    My comment had less to do with whether it exists or not than the patronizing comment that you feel sorry for people who don't believe in it. You're welcome to your beliefs. But save the sanctimony, please. As I said before, don't feel sorry for me. Maybe my midichlorian count just isn't high enough.
     
  19. Nomad

    Nomad Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,206
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    While I agree with this statement in general, I'd like to point out that simply because you can't explain the physics behind a phenomenon does not mean there's mysticism (or ki, or whatever you want to call it) involved. All it means is that you can't explain it or don't yet know the math...

    The burden of proof, IMHO, lies firmly on those who insist that such mystical phenomena exist (whether ki, ESP, acupuncture points, no touch knockouts, psychic powers or whatever) to demonstrate it in a scientifically meaningful way. To date, all such attempts have failed, usually resoundingly.

    The fact that the no-touch knockouts, for instance, consistently fail when used against skeptics and other more physical martial artists is proof positive that those practitioners, at least, are frauds. Here's another website with some awesome video proof of these techniques. Very entertaining.
     
  20. Josh Oakley

    Josh Oakley Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,225
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    Federal Way, WA
    While I can emphasize with your sentiment, "so be it" is not exactly equivalent to "I feel sorry for you".123
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

content