Making up your own kata

[ppko]

There is a school in our area that makes up there own kata (rather the teacher has there students make them up) and this is how they are going to decide the kata that will go into there curriculum. To me this is an outrage just wanting your thoughts.

 

[MJS]

I can see having the student make up their own kata for their Black Belt test, but for the entire format of the school, I'd have to say that is a bad idea.

What art does this school teach? Did it already have kata in it? If so, what is wrong with the kata?

One word...well, actually more come to mind, but none that are suited for this forum....MCDOJO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike

 

[kenpo tiger]

Our school also requires a black belt candidate to compose and choreograph his or her original kata for presentation during her or his test. Otherwise, what we all learn is kenpo. The very smallest kids in our school are taught original 'forms'. I quote for the reason that the little ones learn basics through a pattern our master instructor has composed for them that he tells them are their forms. Once they reach an age (around 7) where they have been attending classes for a while and can grasp the concept of the kenpo forms and sets, they begin learning those.

I don't know that I'd call the school to which you refer a McDojo. I just don't think I'd be happy going to a place like that where there's no continuity to the curriculum.

 

[chinto01]

I believe that creating your own form is wrong also. There is plenty to learn with the traditional forms in one's own system. Creating forms is why we have all of the gymnastics routines that you see at tournaments today.

 

[OC Kid]

I dunno I maybe wrong here. But were the trad katas made by the masters. They were either taken from actual fights the masters had or their favorite techniques.
If thats the case then why wouldnt it be ok for a student to take their favorite techniques make a kata out of them and practice them? Just curious.

FWIW I do teach trad katas in my school. I know 17 of them. The student must learn one or more for each rank advancement

 

[ppko]

I can see having the student make up their own kata for their Black Belt test, but for the entire format of the school, I'd have to say that is a bad idea.

What art does this school teach? Did it already have kata in it? If so, what is wrong with the kata?

One word...well, actually more come to mind, but none that are suited for this forum....MCDOJO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike

I was told that the school is in Northern Kentucky and it teaches Tae Kwon Do

 

[MJS]

I dunno I maybe wrong here. But were the trad katas made by the masters. They were either taken from actual fights the masters had or their favorite techniques.
If thats the case then why wouldnt it be ok for a student to take their favorite techniques make a kata out of them and practice them? Just curious.

It is ok...like it was said, as a requirement for BB, but to have the students make up things, and then teach that as the required material of the school, IMO is not right. PPKO stated that this is a TKD school. Again, I ask, what was/is the problem with the kata that is part of the TKD org. that they are part of?

Mike

 

[terryl965]

Well call me nuts but tradition is the only way and if the school is TKD then they should be doing tae Guek, Palgae or Chongi. No matter what affliation that are the forms that are tought and they are called Pommse not Kata's kata's are Japaness forms Poomse is Korean for forms and the terminology for America is forms.. GOD BLESS AMERICA:asian:

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Even though I voted NO and believe you should perfect the kata of your chosen style; yet I have gone ahead and developed my own 'personal' kata based on my favorite techniques and those that have worked both in contest and in a self-defense situation.

This is strictly a 'personal' kata, which I keep to myself and practice on my own; I let no one see me practice my personal kata anymore than I would want someone to read my diary.

But I devised my own 'personal' kata only after I had been well versed in several traditional karate & Judo kata's.

 

[Andrew Green]

No, Creativity and original thinking should definately not be allowed, there is no place for that in the martial arts.

But seriously, who cares? As long as they aren't saying they are doing something that they are not what is the problem?

 

[MJS]

No, Creativity and original thinking should definately not be allowed, there is no place for that in the martial arts.

I dont recall seeing where anyone said that being creative was a bad thing.

But seriously, who cares? As long as they aren't saying they are doing something that they are not what is the problem?

Well, to each his own I guess. I know that I would want to learn the kata, forms, etc. that are part of that system, not something that was created by a group of students just to add to the material.

Again, I wonder why the inst. at that school is not happy with the forms from his original system?

Mike

 

[Marginal]

No, Creativity and original thinking should definately not be allowed, there is no place for that in the martial arts.

Yeah, but you happen to think that all kata is useless.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Yeah, but you happen to think that all kata is useless.

Andrew's not the only one I've come across who thinks kata are useless. That's all up to what you're doing MA for. Guy in my school hates kata because he only wants to spar. He grudgingly does techs because they're valuable fighting tools and he knows it. Couple of the other men feel that way, too. Guess it's a guy thing. I've yet to meet a woman who doesn't enjoy doing kata.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I dont recall seeing where anyone said that being creative was a bad thing.



Well, to each his own I guess. I know that I would want to learn the kata, forms, etc. that are part of that system, not something that was created by a group of students just to add to the material.

Again, I wonder why the inst. at that school is not happy with the forms from his original system?

Mike

God forbid a student should string a couple of moves toguether without consulting a thousand years of tradition. Souldn't logic dictate a good or bad form? I don't think its about adding to the curriculum; its about excercising the curriculum in a maner that focuses on an area a student feels he can use some work. :asian:
Sean

 

[MichiganTKD]

Andrew's not the only one I've come across who thinks kata are useless. That's all up to what you're doing MA for. Guy in my school hates kata because he only wants to spar. He grudgingly does techs because they're valuable fighting tools and he knows it. Couple of the other men feel that way, too. Guess it's a guy thing. I've yet to meet a woman who doesn't enjoy doing kata.

Not me. I love doing form. There is ALWAYS something new to learn from it, and you can spend a lifetime perfecting it. Without form, it would just be fighting. Guys need form because it teaches us how to be graceful and flow with our techniques.

As far as making up our own, yes I have experimented with my own personal sets, wondering how to begin and what might come next. But I teach and practice official forms that were developed by more experienced Grandmasters than me. Your average student and black belt has nowhere near the expertise necessary to consider developing his/her own form. You want creativity? Learn to apply the techniques you already know. Additionally, most forms are based on principles hundreds or thousands of years old. Your average Instructor, teaching for even several decades, is simply not at that level.
One of the things that separates true form from mere technique sets is nuance-the little things that must be understood before a form is effective. If I set out to create a form, it may have nice big movements, but it would be lacking in the nuances that make it what it is. Just like a master painting. It is the nuances, the little details that give it life and character. This is what also separates true from phony masters. True masters understand and can explain these nuances. Phony masters cannot.
I've practiced form with GM Hae Man Park. He could easily spend 3 hours on a little technique-how to do it properly, what angle, where to contact, what it does etc. You just stand amazed at how little you really know.

About the Instructor who has his students work on their own forms. I have a theory about that. I think he is not close to his Instructor, either broke away or got cut. He never really learned how to do form aside from basic practice. As a result, he has his students make up form to cover up his own lack of knowlege. Much like an Instructor who makes up technique to cover up the fact he doesn't know basics.

 

[Andrew Green]

Yeah, but you happen to think that all kata is useless.

For my purposes classical karate-style kata are counter productive. Not everyone has the same purpose as me though.

Nor does everyone have the same purpose as you. Some do kata as a creative dance, why are they wrong for doing so?

 

[Patrick Skerry]

For my purposes classical karate-style kata are counter productive. Not everyone has the same purpose as me though.

Nor does everyone have the same purpose as you. Some do kata as a creative dance, why are they wrong for doing so?

Not just as creative dance, but also as dynamic meditation. Yet by making up your own Kata, your making a statement that you have learned and are practicing techniques that you have proven in a life and death street fight or actual hand to hand combat situation, not in a ring or tournament.

Those classical kata's that you learn are from actual proven fighting techniques.

 

[Andrew Green]

proven in a life and death street fight or actual hand to hand combat situation


Those classical kata's that you learn are from actual proven fighting techniques.

Prove that they are proven. Go on, I dare ya

hmm...Maybe we could comission a few gangsta's to create some "modern" kata then...

Wait... aren't martial arts masters supposed to be peaceful? What were they doing getting in all those life or death fights then?

 

[RRouuselot]

There is a school in our area that makes up there own kata (rather the teacher has there students make them up) and this is how they are going to decide the kata that will go into there curriculum. To me this is an outrage just wanting your thoughts.

The phrase "the blind leading the blind" comes to mind..........

 

[MJS]

God forbid a student should string a couple of moves toguether without consulting a thousand years of tradition. Souldn't logic dictate a good or bad form? I don't think its about adding to the curriculum; its about excercising the curriculum in a maner that focuses on an area a student feels he can use some work. :asian:
Sean

LOL! Sorry Sean, but you're still missing the point. Go back and read the first post from PPKO. He stated that the instructor was having students make up kata to add to the system. Again, I'll say that there is NOTHING wrong with being creative. I did a kata and thesis paper for my first degree. Its good to have people use their mind, but it appears to me that this guy is doing it for the sole purpose of adding things that are made up. God forbid someone should have a different opinion!!!!

Mike